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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:33 pm 
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raistlin75 wrote:
It's not as if you'd know there were episodes going on if you signed on between them. They leave no trace of anything having happened except for a stray linking book every so often. A top priority should of been to chronicle what's been going on so a player know where to go and WHY they are going there. All the "story" that happened this year may just of well not ever happened because it didn't change anything (not really) and there's no reason for a new player to care as it didn't have anything to do with the ages that were being released.


I will agree with this statement. I signed up for MOUL around the second week of November, knowing nothing about the episodic content. My only previous Uru experience was through Complete Chronicles. Although I "knew" it was supposed to be multiplayer, I didn't feel like I was missing anything. If Myst felt like an archaeological dig, then Uru CC felt like an archaeological dig OF an archaeological dig. I enjoyed it. When I finally signed on to MOUL the "story" was over. Once again, I didn't feel like I was missing anything. It just felt like Uru CC with extra people.

But now I do feel like I was missing something. Why wasn't there a video, or better yet (In my opinion) journals from the various characters that I could read and from that understand what's going on. This is how EVERY other Myst game has conveyed the story. Why not now?!

Adding to this frustration is the fact that MOUL still hasn't quite finished the Path of the Shell content. I'm now paying for a Gametap subscription (that I wouldn't have bought, and won't keep, without MOUL) for a game that I already own and have already played several times!

But all grumbling aside, I LOVE THIS GAME! Even though I've aquired all I can for my Relto, I still greatly enjoy helping others with Ahnonay and Er'cana. I love helping others get through the Tsogal and Delin doors. I've walked with people through Minkata. I've enjoyed these things every bit as much as anything else I've done in the Myst universe. And I love the Myst fantasy enough that I have hope for it's future.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:36 pm 
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Don't talk: do!

The game is good as it is,but your ideas can make it even better! if you want something in-game (which is not there by now),send a ticket request! and if you RAELLY want that in-game,get some people who want it and each one will send a request! leaving the game because you don't like something in it will just fail the game,like the original uru live.If you want something,send a request!

I sent a request for birds relto page.And we got it after some time.

If you don't have time for sending,I can even send for you.Tell me here what you want to request (more content,no episodes) and I will send it.But you don't have to leave because of that!

AND,tweek is right.I like to think MOUL as one of the myst series,no spin-off things,but it is a little different.All other mysts were 70% puzzles and 30% exploration.MOUL is 70% exploration and 30% puzzles.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:03 pm 
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Yes, there is fun to be had in helping other Explorers. I used to enjoy that. Back in the day when I could reliably complete a link. A few episodes back the link-update loop problem came up and tech support has given up trying to solve it. They say it's my computer. Now I have a half-and-half chance of arriving at the desired Age. "Yes, I'll be happy to help you... if I get there." So, in addition to providing some real story, I'd like to see a solution to the technical problems that still afflict many players.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:22 pm 
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While I love the game I have to agree with many of the points made.
I think the biggest question here for me; is there ONE thing that could have been done that would have kept you from leaving?
If there is, then Cyan might be able to get that in the next episode with their short staff.
I am wondering, if you had some kinda event replayer, would that make you happier? Sure you might miss that sparkly if someone didn't share their Myst book with you but you would at least get the Yeesha speech Kveer.

I had a dream the other night that I was in a new garden age and there this device up by a stage.... similar to the look of the thing hanging in the middle of the hood auditorium. I starting playing around with it and found that there was a control panel behind the stage. Fiddling with it started a recording that played a full size dance event out in the entire garden of the D'ni maybe 100's of years before.... looked like a wedding and played similar to the Yeesha hologram in the cleft just on a larger scale.
(if that makes any sense)

If you had something that you could activate in Kveer once you get there that played the event out, maybe even converted Yeesha's speech to voice, would that have worked for you? Getting the missed event off the forum and into the game. Making them a little better (adding voice) since you missed the live event. See I'm not saying drop the live event, I am saying have the live event AND then drop a device in the following episode that will replay the live event out for the ppl who missed it. To keep these machines from piling up all over the cavern, just archive it in the upper part of the library at the end of the season, or archive anything older than 6 episodes. To put a story around this.... an explorer finds a D'ni video recorder. It records event in full 3D. When loaded into a player it plays the event out to a specified scale. So you could have the event play full size in the actual area or 1/16th the size on a table in the library.

I've put in at least one feature request already to get the content from the forums into the game. I believe that too much of my time keeping up with the story is spent out of the game.... so much so that i just gave up on the story.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:26 pm 
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Well, what can I say...

I understand why people are frustrated and why people are leaving...

I feel a bit frustrated myself too. There's so much potential, there are so many ideas for Ages and D'ni areas that can be worked out. There are so many Ages that I want to see. We've seen so much concept art. We've heard so much about Cyan's initial plans for URU. And now there's a break, while we have barely started! That's how I feel sometimes. And I'm also feeling a bit frustrated because I can't do anything to improve Cyan's situation to let them make URU as it was meant to be, except for bothering them with tickets.

But I'm staying because I have hope... I want to see URU how it was meant to be, and that's certainly not going to happen if I'm leaving. I understand that some people are growing tired of that waiting though.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:31 pm 
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Sudre wrote:
I had a dream the other night that I was in a new garden age and there this device up by a stage.... similar to the look of the thing hanging in the middle of the hood auditorium. I starting playing around with it and found that there was a control panel behind the stage. Fiddling with it started a recording that played a full size dance event out in the entire garden of the D'ni maybe 100's of years before.... looked like a wedding and played similar to the Yeesha hologram in the cleft just on a larger scale.
(if that makes any sense)

If you had something that you could activate in Kveer once you get there that played the event out, maybe even converted Yeesha's speech to voice, would that have worked for you? Getting the missed event off the forum and into the game. Making them a little better (adding voice) since you missed the live event. See I'm not saying drop the live event, I am saying have the live event AND then drop a device in the following episode that will replay the live event out for the ppl who missed it. To keep these machines from piling up all over the cavern, just archive it in the upper part of the library at the end of the season, or archive anything older than 6 episodes. To put a story around this.... an explorer finds a D'ni video recorder. It records event in full 3D. When loaded into a player it plays the event out to a specified scale. So you could have the event play full size in the actual area or 1/16th the size on a table in the library.


This would also be a perfect reason to open the concert hall and place such a device there.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:31 pm 
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SCGreyWolf wrote:
So basically we've been steered from "cautious optimism" to "hopeful pessimism". That's not good.

Grey, I am afraid we do a lot of the steering ourselves... if we talk ourselves into doom and gloom, it might just become yet another self-fulfilling prophesy... I for one stay positive and do not allow myself to be influenced by speculation. Until we get official news, I shall not make any conclusions one way or the other.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:48 pm 
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The stranger wrote:
Don't talk: do!


Well, we are. We are voicing our concerns, and most posters here have put forward their suggestions for positive change. Whether they happen here or in the form of a ticket doesn't really matter, I am sure they will be noticed.

The problems that many here have identified cannot be simply fixed with a feature request. It's not as simple as 'do away with episodes' or 'give us another Relto page'.

I feel that the community has always had little influence on the direction Uru took. Most of the things mentioned here have already been mentioned a year ago, and some before Uru was even released.

If Uru is fine for you the way it is, then by all means enjoy it! It isn't for me in the form it takes right now, and I do not feel like supporting it blindly anymore without any indication change is on the way. I might feel different if I had the other Gametap content to keep me busy, but I don't. That's not Cyan's fault. So it's really just like I said, the last straw after a long time of quietly hoping.

When you defend the current Uru by saying 'but it is not Myst', I really thing you are just being apologetic for the sake of it. After all, it is called Myst Online. It carries forth the series' story. It is a successor. I agree, it departs from the previous games in some fundamental ways. However, it does so without adding anything fundamentally more enjoyable to the mix.

What does Uru add that the single player games did not do so much more enjoyably?

I agree with many of the above posters that Uru's primary downfall is the lack of story. The previous games were excellent in conveying meaningful, emotionally impacting stories in often subtle ways. This concern has been around since the second beta. Why does Uru fail at conveying story?

Exclusive, time limited content
The choice of conveying story mostly through one-off real-time events is catastrophic, in my opinion. It frustrates the players who cannot attend them for whatever reason. It frustrates the ones present, because they have to hurry to make it to the event, sit still hoping not to be crashed out of the instance, and more often then not are mostly inconsequential lectures. Story content must be available to anyone when they eventually come to the point the story takes place. Otherwise you abandon 95% of your players. I don't mind the occasional live appearance, but those should be the exception, not the mechanism for propelling the story forward.

EDIT (to respond to Sudre's post which I didn't see before):

Sudre wrote:
I had a dream the other night that I was in a new garden age and there this device up by a stage.... similar to the look of the thing hanging in the middle of the hood auditorium. I starting playing around with it and found that there was a control panel behind the stage. Fiddling with it started a recording that played a full size dance event out in the entire garden of the D'ni maybe 100's of years before.... looked like a wedding and played similar to the Yeesha hologram in the cleft just on a larger scale.


That was a very nice post Sudre. Thank you! Yes, that is the kind of thing I am talking about when I put forward that story should be persistent in my original post. Either some kind of recording, a video, voice like in the cave, anything really. I would not like to see a direct recording of the live event, however. Because that would just remind me that I am just a straggler on a journey other people have made before me. It needs to be original, and it needs to be directed at me (or the people exploring with me). It needs to feel like I have made a discovery for it to be truly rewarding. Sure, this does eliminate the sense that the city is alive and everything is happening in real-time. But really, is that such a worthwhile ideal when it sacrifices so many players' enjoyment? For example, in LOTRO there are story instances that anyone can play through at any time. Many have seen them before me, but when they happen, I feel I am the one experiencing them first hand. That is exactly how current games excel at delivering drama in an episodic way.

Everything floats without direction
Like many have said before, story in the previous games were mostly conveyed through journals or other texts. That mechanism worked exceptionally well in my opinion. The journals were both rewards (for getting to them), and explained the world and the plot. Uru could be instantly improved so much if the environments added in season one had any kind of texts associated with them. DRC journals in the pods, for example. Here we found these things, we think the D'ni used them for experiments, the controls seem to not be attuned correctly, etc etc. Just letting people figure out that the controls do nothing is just a time sink to tide people over. It's cruel. It creates frustration. The past few updates added things without any explanation, the rewards were equally inexplicable and ultimately meaningless. Sure, Uru is different than Myst. But it is superior how?

Finally, saying that it is in the explorer's hands to make the game fun is just silly, in my opinion. This is 2007, not 1996 at the release of UO. We are here to be entertained. Most of us have to make a choice whether to log into Uru or watch a DVD (or play another game, go to the movies, etc.) with our limited entertainment time. We also do not have the tools to fundamentally impact the game. Uru is not Second Life. So whatever the explorer's add to the game is the icing on the cake. It cannot be the primary form of content, or Uru becomes a very pretty free-form role-playing chat room. I doubt most people are here for that.

I love Uru as much as all the other people here. There are so many more games out there right now, which have fulfilled the original vision of episodic, dramatic online entertainment. I would much rather like to see Cyan put their energies into something completely new and successful than let Uru slowly bleed to death.

Sure, I would love to see Uru's original vision be fulfilled. But without any word of just how this could will be done, or when this might happen, I am not very optimistic anymore. Just apologising for it now kinda betrays the amazing things that have gone before in my mind.


Last edited by Axel on Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:02 pm 
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Not to ruffle feathers or anything, but it is in gametaps interest to keep Mystonline around as long as they can. Since it brought in new subscriptions for thier service. I for one wouldnt keep mine if mystonline left gametap. It's the only reason I have gametap. Also for the international subscriptions that can't get the other games and only have mystonline.

I'm sure gametap knows this and really doesn't want to lose subscriptions, specially alot of them just because they removed one game. It would be nice if either gametap or cyan or both would say something to let us know how things are going, but I'm sure they both are very busy with things.

You can only use the saying "no news is good news" for certain things. This isn't one of them IMO.

Mystonline has it's moments, but episodes was a mistake IMO. I've only seen one event fully since mystonline started and that was because I was home sick. Even with episodes I still can't be there. So random events are better for me.

We all love mystonline in one way or another, but you can't escape that it isn't myst-erious anymore.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:25 pm 
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Axel just got here and is now leaving - oh no!

Take care Axel. I'll PM.

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Last edited by mszv on Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:34 pm 
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Cyan Worlds did a little mistake.When MOUL came out,they said:

"You got the whole uru CC content to do!"

Old players said:

"But we allready done that in uru CC..."

But new players.Think how happy they were to see so much ages! jalak dador for games,minkata for puzzle.And many big,never seen before to them ages! ahnonay,teledahn,er'cana,gahreesen,kadish tolesa...so much things!

Same with story.We got,as you say, "less story,and the story we had was just in real-time and no texts".But what new players got? phil's journal,watson's journal,sharper's journal,lot's of notes,clues notebooks,DRC reserches...many things!

But if you are leaving forever because of that,I can tell you: when season 2 strikes,play.Season 1 was just complition of the uru CC content in MOUL,with some little new things.But season 2...think how great it can be! all new ages,some with puzzles some without puzzles,some journals,i'm sure,and many more things.What I say is: wait and watch.Better things will come,I'm sure.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:55 pm 
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@Axel

Quote:
,but it's not Myst


Well it isn't.....

I got my hopes up more then a few times this last year only to have them dashed by the end of each episode which broke any chance for the story to have some continuity. Honestly that's why I dislike the Episode format each Episodes story wasn't given the support to truly arc over the month in the cavern into the next Episode. Then the one bit of continuity we had in the cavern got borked fairly early on for believable reasons losing us Sharper's journal. :(

Ok said my piece about the Story or lack of elements in it so I will leave with this.

Moving ABM, To D'ni, and TPOTS into MO:UL was more or less expected and I never figured Cyan would instantly get back into the Age creation groove. They took a year like I originally thought to get all the old content out, while releasing some rather nice mini Ages in between. (No I don't count the pods, since their release I still haven't seen any animals there! :lol:)

So Later, and while I may agree with many of your points I trust Cyan still remembers them and Season Two will be better.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:46 pm 
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Axel wrote:
When you defend the current Uru by saying 'but it is not Myst', I really thing you are just being apologetic for the sake of it. After all, it is called Myst Online. It carries forth the series' story. It is a successor. I agree, it departs from the previous games in some fundamental ways. However, it does so without adding anything fundamentally more enjoyable to the mix.


Except it has always been stated as not being Myst but more of a spin off since like 2000 (which is a time when apologies for such things were not even being conceived).

It is called Myst Online purely for marketing, to attach itself to a known brand (there was a hissy fit about this back in 2003 when the game initially launched, the game has Myst on the box above the Uru logo).


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:54 pm 
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The stranger wrote:
But new players.Think how happy they were to see so much ages! jalak dador for games,minkata for puzzle.And many big,never seen before to them ages! ahnonay,teledahn,er'cana,gahreesen,kadish tolesa...so much things!


True. But are they paying the bills? Think about it for a moment.

I'll wager that the very large majority of subscribing Uru players are old-time Uru fans. We like Uru so much, we subscribed to Gametap for Uru as the sole reason, in my case even though I am not even allowed access to the Gametap service! This is where the revenue comes from that keeps the game afloat.

The next group of people are probably existing Gametap users who just try out Uru because they can do so for free. Those people get an extremely great deal, and an amazing wealth of content. However, their contribution to the revenue stream is zero. They do not sustain Uru. And more likely than not, their user lifetime is probably really short as well, so they don't populate the game either.

The final group, the really interesting one, is the one Gametap and Cyan should have focused on. The totally new players. They get good content for a great prize. And since they would be first time subscribers they also bring in as much money as group one. However, there is very little being done to ease new players into the complicted beast that is Uru.

Now, how many completely new players do you think Uru attracts for Gametap? Bear in mind, there is no advertising, no affiliate marketing (that I am aware of), nothing. This could be a handful of players at best.

So, barring marketing and new player influx, the people actually paying the bills is the first group. The hard core long-time fans. We have consistently higher expectations because we know what has gone before and what a great Myst game can be like. So, of course, we are also terribly hard to please.

My point being, yes, Uru is a great deal for first time players. But those aren't the ones who pick up the (game)tap (horrible pun fully intentional *g*).

Will a second season make everything better?

A lot of people on here certainly think so. I also truly hope it does. However, I keep writing here, because I think if they don't fundamentally change direction, there either will not be a second season, or at the best it will just be more of the same (on a declining scale due to waning subscriptions).

I do not fault Cyan for completing the MOUL with the CC content. One, it was always meant to be in the game, and two it could be inserted with a fraction of the effort required by new development. Perfect. I was thrilled to see Ahnonay again (well until that last straw).

However, what about the new content that they also added? I think, in precisely the nature of the new content lies the revelation that Cyan hasn't really figured out how to actually make MOUL work and how to make it fun for everyone. There is not a lot of new content. However, it is not the amount of content that is the real problem (after all we can appreciate tight resource situation).

The problem is that the new content shows a complete lack of continuity with what made the original games so much fun. No journals, no story, inexplicable rewards. More exlusive events most will never experience. All of this could have been added, at little or no additional cost. I never expected them to provide a huge puzzle filled Age in the first year. However, I certainly expected them to provide the same care and quality of design in the little things they added. I expected a story.

What makes you think that second season content will suddenly, and magically realise the original vision? There is no evidence for this in season one. There is no communication about it. At this point, there doesn't even seem to be a vision for the game anymore.

The only hope I have at this point is that Cyan realises that Uru is not a fun game in its present state for a lot of people, and that the season one new content, and the story episodes do not work. I wish that they will take this to heart, and if given the opportunity for making a second season take a radical departure in their approach to the development.

Most of all, I would love to hear any kind of communication from them. I can appreciate a second season still being negotiated shouldn't be discussed publically. But they certainly can talk about season one, can't they? That would help.

To those who think we shouldn't talk ourself into gloom & doom. If we don't voice our concerns doom will happen anyway. This is not about creating a bad vibe in the community. This is about bringing the issues to the forefront which need to be solved if the game is to have any kind of future at all. For me, it is a fundamentally positive discussion, just without being apologetic about the game.

EDIT Another reply added while parallel posting :)

Tweek wrote:
Except it has always been stated as not being Myst but more of a spin off since like 2000 (which is a time when apologies for such things were not even being conceived).


Right you are of course. However, most players are here because they liked the original games. The gameplay of Uru is also almost exactly the same, and it was always stated that Uru, while different in some ways, would be endless Ages online. It was never talked about as a completely different game experience. You (and I don't mean you personally) are only putting forward the superficial explanation that the name might be misleading, but you are dodging my concern that Uru imitates the earlier games, without actually living up to them or adding anything superior.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:01 pm 
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Quote:
For anybody who missed it here's the original quote its from MiceAge.com a site dedicated to holding Disney's feet to the fire when their standards of quality slip at their Parks (which has been happening big time since the mid-90's.

Not just in this article but in the whole MiceAge.com site the parallels between whats happened to Disney product and Cyan product are amazing... but whats really amazing are the parallels in the reactions of the fans! :wink:

Quote:
DoMs: Bad for the Brand

They pop up for all businesses, big or small, industrial or entertainment. They claim to love the product so much that they feel they have to blindly support it no matter how reasoned or legitimate any criticism of it may be. Like busy bees, they flit from forum to forum online making life unpleasant for those that even begin to offer an opinion different from their unquestioning "must be positive" view, and Lord help those who feel it can be done better.

These are the Defenders of Mediocrity, or DoMs for short. And they are the single most damaging thing that can happen to the Disney brand.

You've seen their postings: Light Magic? They loved it, it was the best show they never saw because they only heard the MP3 or saw it on YouTube. Rocket Rods? What a great ride, not everything needs to be themed, the red light bulbs were wonderful! Deteriorating Attractions? Walt Disney was wrong about keeping up the exterior, the peeling paint and broken ride elements fit right into the Haunted Mansion theme. DCA? Isn't it swell it's so uncrowded and it has one good ride? Epcot's 25th? Wow, the fans got a slapped together ceremony, and they should be thankful for it and the two boxes of merchandise they offered! etc... etc... etc...

It's well known the Disney company keeps an close eye online, and more than a few times the immediate and unsparingly honest feedback for their latest offerings has resulted in refinements, reworkings and even the rare shutdown of a show or ride. But the gushing DoM fan postings supporting a product that is of a lower quality than what Disney should offer get monitored too - and more than a few times they have been used to try to convince the higher-ups that customers don't care or notice.

The people who care about quality at Disney are very encouraged by the sea change in management at the company, from Iger on down. Unlike the latter of the two decades under Eisner, or the 10 years with Pressler there is a lot being done right nowadays. But there are still those DoM postings that get printed out by those more concerned about budgets or cutbacks that worry some of the folks spearheading the renaissance going on right now. Walt Disney World in particular suffers from the incredible amount of damage these DoMs can inflict - those little salvos praising the poorest quality shows or attractions can hold back those who want to improve the offerings out there.

How can those who care be helped? All they ask is that if you see a DoM posting making excuses for a botched product or service, that you take a few moments to respond to it. Take a minute to post how important the higher standards Disney is usually known for justify their premium pricing, and that the best quality product is important to you. It doesn't need in any way to be a putdown, it just needs to be honest about what can be done better.

It can give those who care a weapon (in the form of a counterpoint) in their quest to up the quality of what the Mouse offers. And even DoMs will ultimately benefit by getting a better product that they can gush even more about.


full article is at http://www.miceage.com/allutz/al100907e.htm

:wink:


Last edited by semplerfi on Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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