It is currently Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:00 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 83 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 4134
I've been thinking about this for quite a while and the recent announcement about Uru's fourth incarnation helped me consolidate my thoughts on this.

One of the things I see as a problem with the previous run of Uru was the intolerance (of which I was a participant) of people who had a critical view of Uru. I think we made more enemies than friends and, while I don't think it was the sole cause of Uru's demise, I think it was a strong contributing factor. And I think it came from a bad perception supporters had of people who criticized the game (some critics didn't help themselves by being generally snotty, but most were not and I think even the snotty ones should be treated better than they were). I think we all should keep this in mind as we go forward for we will fail again if we do not. People who complain do so because they want to see the game succeed. While some might have malevolent intentions, that does not outbalance the risk of alienating good and devoted Myst, Cyan, and Uru fans in the process. All critics should be treated fairly and equally and be listened to and responded to. Talk of their points, not of their intentions, and the day will be your's. But when you get locked into a cycle of paranoia, of what you think the other person is "really" saying, you open up yourself to a universe of misunderstandings and rudeness which only promises to return that same rudeness.

Everyone here enjoys Uru. The question is often raised "If you don't like it so much, why are you here?". I have the answer. They are here because they want this game to succeed, to flourish. They want the game to improve so they never have a grievance at all. They may feel angry at a certain portion of the game or lack your enthusiasm, but they are nonetheless devoted. Everyone here enjoys Uru. And while they may bring up the same concerns repeatedly, that only means those concerns should be worked on more. No one should be made to feel that they are less of an Uru fan for speaking their concerns, or that they should find somewhere else to play. Because they will, and that will be one fewer fan, one fewer person in the community voice. Because they will move on when they feel the community they enjoyed being a part of disowned them. And because we're now up against not just the typical MMO, but against other new ideas like Spore which threaten to shift the gaming market right out from under our feet. Only time will tell, of course, but we can do ourselves a favor and treat each "complainer" as a devoted fan who sees something that, once fixed, could help propel Uru to success. I believe it is the duty of each of us now (as it should have been before) to listen to criticism and to find ways of improving the game, not shunning fellow fans.

_________________
-Whilyam
Cavern Link:My IC Blog


Last edited by Whilyam on Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:51 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:53 am
Posts: 859
I am really very glad that you posted this, Whilyam.

I still read the forums periodically but no longer post here simply because I felt the community had pretty much had enough of me since I
A. Was a "complainer", along with my girlfriend, even though we have both been Myst fans for over 15 years now.
and
B. Supported GameTap, which was akin to being a demon spawn in these parts for quite some time.

I sincerely hope that the next version of Uru succeeds, and I hope that the community welcomes people no matter how unconditionally (or conditionally) they support the game.

Shorah.

_________________
KI#76914
Moderator for the Official Gametap Forums
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 11:30 pm
Posts: 1116
Whilyam wrote:
The question is often raised "If you don't like it so much, why are you here?".


:roll: Whilyam, you live in the past.The slogan is already changing to "If you don't like it, change it." (for an example of that see shameless link to own thread) Please don't bring up old issues AGAIN, will ya? Let the past be the past, and let's move on.... please. Want to improve something? I'm all ears, and if I like it, I'll help ya! :P That is the NEW way of thinking! :D


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:45 pm
Posts: 1353
Location: Most likely in the cavern somewhere.
I think Whilyam made a good point. We do need to treat those we agree with with the same respect as those who agree with us. I also agree with Sophia. Since it looks like we will be able to fix somethings ourselves in cavern, if you see something you don't like, don't complain, try and fix it. If you don't know how, try and find someone who does. That's my 2 cents worth anyway.

_________________
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 3:12 pm
Posts: 2190
Location: Houston
Whilyam all I can promise is to do my best.

I may be the odd man out in this but many of the people who at their worst criticize one aspect or another of the game do so with vague references and half veiled threats, and I can not respect that. So for me not all critics in all cases deserve to be responded to in public and I will chose instead to stop replying even though I many times have continued reading their posts. A real critic is a rare person that yes deserves to be listened to it's just most of the problems are individuals trapped in a cycle of OUTRAGE over something and all you can do is wait for them to calm down.

_________________
Waymet


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:15 am 
Offline
Former MystOnline Moderator

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 3:59 pm
Posts: 1918
Location: Massachusetts
Hmmm....I don't see this so much as living in the past as accepting the present and future.

Posts like the previous one from macnbc, and messages I get from members often are along the same lines: " I really love the game, but when I mention anything that might be wrong with it, I get crucified for stating my opinion. So I'd just rather not post." It's awful reading those messages.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game myself, but am not adverse to saying that it had many flaws. In my opinion, the good outweighed the bad. For others, that may not be so. It's all a matter of personal opinion and because of that, tolerance is a must. None of us can decide for another what works for them and what doesn't.

We have our " OMG!!!!! This game is awesome and whoever you are that doesn't like it is an idiot!!" threads, along with our " This game really bites and anyone who plays it is an idiot!!" threads. Which ever thread you post in, you get slammed. In between, there are those who try to come in and give their honest general opinion.....good, bad or indifferent....and they, too, get slammed for expressing it. Not cool.

Whilyam has made an excellent point here and I sincerely hope others will see that, too. Accept the fact that not everyone will see your point of view and, if you can, find a way to discuss those differences. Seek out the alternatives, try to find the fixes...whatever it takes, but don't just dismiss a conflicting opinion as unimportant. If you don't like reading the negative opinions, stick to the positive threads. Of course, by the same token, if you're sick of listening to the cheering section, then by all means...don't.

No one can force anyone's opinion on anyone else. The members are simply voicing their approval or concerns. If you don't happen to agree and don't have anything positive to say or can add any construction criticism, then what about just moving along to a topic that you can enjoy, and let those who differ from you have their say also?

Just a thought - as me, not a Mod........... :wink:

_________________
Here we go again.......:mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 11:30 pm
Posts: 1116
Lovely post, Whitch :) You must be in the know, more than we are and it is so nice to hear the perspective of a much respected mod. :) I agree with every word you said in fact... and I still hope the new way of thinking is more along the lines of constructive posts and criticism, not holy roller type (they don't help) or "this game stinks and if you like it you stink too" (they don't help either).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:19 am
Posts: 1300
I've always tried to walk the high road in forums, including this one, and not put anybody down for expressing their opinion. I'd rather say well done, or not say it if I disagree with somebody. Yes, I'm not perfect tho. But I would like to say "Thank you" to Whilyam for his lovely expression of thoughts. How true, Whilyam. How totally utterly true.

Now, recall this line from our friend Kha'tie when she asked our dear friend Whitch to be a moderator. "Dear, wear your flame proof underpants because you are going to get toasted and roasted but you'll survive". Or something along those lines if I recall. The point being: A moderators job sucks. You hardly ever get a thank you for a volunteer job. You often get yelled at. For a volunteer job?!? Yes, I may be seen by many as a goodie-two-shoes sucking up to the mods. Well, yes, I am a friend of some of them. I send thank you notes when I see fit, or PM's of condolence.

Please, treat everybody on this board with R E S P E C T as the lady Aretha sings. We all deserve it. Whilyam just drove home the point that if we don't we can kiss some fans bye bye. So is that a good way to move forward? I think not.

And thank you to the moderators on this board who do their job effectively. You are appreciated by many, thanked by few, but hopefully disliked by even fewer :wink:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:47 am 
I have nothing but admiration for Whilyam, for this post, and for all who can "walk the high road" as Toria puts it. I wish I could believe as they do that everyone who posts here is whole-heartedly united in support of Cyan and of MORE.

If I have not followed the same course, if I have seen posts that express nothing but negativity and questioned the reasoning behind them, if I have demanded of those who repeatedly seek to discourage others from joining and supporting Uru that they also offer some constructive way of making the game closer to what they desire (as I tried to do whenever I had a complaint about MOUL) it is because I too want this game to succeed and to be the best it can be. That the people I thus address invariably fail to do so, and instead rephrase and reiterate their complaint, causes me to question their motivation. What can I say, I'm old and depressed, and my idealism has taken some serious knocks over the years.

The fact is that MORE, for the foreseeable future, will be what it is, what has been laid down in the Roadmap, or it will be nothing at all. There is no material way to make Cyan provide new content till they are ready and able to do so. There is no way to make all fan created content magically as "good" as Cyan content (though I am convinced, from what I have seen, that it will be) and some would never see it as such. Therefore--follow me closely on this one--complaining with a view to "improving" the game on those fronts is clearly a futile endeavour, and can have little good effect. Complaints on other fronts, as in the Cleft vs Relto thread, have been accompanied by constructive and doable suggestions, and I think fall into the category of complaint described by Whilyam above. I have no quarrel with those; as Whilyam and others have said, they are necessary if we are to help MORE survive, grow and succeed. For the thousandth time, I am not a moron, my glasses are not rose-coloured and my reactions are not knee-jerk. No form of Uru has been perfect, there is always room for improvement, and I am wholly on the side of anyone who wishes to improve it.

I shall continue to deal with the other kinds of complainers, the ones that have no constructive suggestions to make and only seek to convince others that MORE has no value and should not be supported, as I always have. If they wish me to stop, the remedy is in their hands: they only have to show that what Whilyam says is true, that they wish MORE to succeed and have positive and feasible ideas how it could be changed to be more successful. If they refuse to do so, then I shall take that as my answer.

I do not say that they have no right to be negative: I merely affirm my own right to respond, and that I shall exercise that right as long as I and Uru remain.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:21 am 
Offline
Obduction Backer

Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:46 am
Posts: 1621
Location: Here, there, you know. Around.
I agree with you about the complainers, havin always been one myself. I also don't buy the whole "Only complain if you have suggestions" idea either. If you want to complain, go ahead. Have GOOD reasons to complain. If they're justified, it'll point out our follies, point out our mistakes. Point out your own. Let us come together, deliberate over the topic.. and come to a resolution we never would have seen before. Groupthink is an ugly thing. It stifles creativity and growth. So do personal attacks, where everyone is caught flaming the person and not the points.

Complaints and deliberation are good.



However, in that spirit, I think you're wrong on one point. It's NEVER us versus other games. We're not "up against them". They can shift the ground from under our feet. That's GOOD. It keeps us on our toes. A stagnant culture dies. Take those games as challenges... challenges to urge us to respond by proving what we know and what we can do. If you hate a game, hate it for what faults it has. But also... remember to love and praise it for what it gives too.



We can't be insular and xenophobic forever. I've seen too many people decrying Gametap for having only action shooter games and such. Sure you hate those. Fine. Others like them. Instead, find those good adventure games, the ones no one notices. Make them notice, not forcefully but let them experience for themselves. You'll be surprised how many converts you get.

We won't grow if we try to push down all the other games as inferior for whatever reason. That merely makes people who like those games hate us. We won't get anywhere if we try to present Uru as superior to all of them, to raise it up to a god among games. That will make them think we're fanatics and elitist. Instead.. carefully persuade them. Show them why it's a good game among OTHER games. This is NOT a competition. This is NOT a race. It is NOT a zero-sum game, where to get forward someone has to fall behind. This is a cooperation, a way to make the world a more entertaining place for everyone, where they can feel they belong. Please, keep that in mind, on the forums, and in life.



Ok, go ahead and pick apart my ideas now. That's the spirit, after all. But make sure you explain why you disagree and what you think is wrong. Otherwise nothing will get done now, will it? :wink:

_________________
You know, I wish we would learn Atrus loved the 1812 overture, and in turn we had a copy for our relto.
That's right, a canon canen cannon!

MOULa KI: #00027582 #7425022
100% Authentic Gondar! Accept no substitutes, imitations, or knock-offs!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:08 am
Posts: 1991
Location: Greenville, SC
macnbc wrote:
I am really very glad that you posted this, Whilyam.

I still read the forums periodically but no longer post here simply because I felt the community had pretty much had enough of me since I
A. Was a "complainer", along with my girlfriend, even though we have both been Myst fans for over 15 years now.
and
B. Supported GameTap, which was akin to being a demon spawn in these parts for quite some time.

I sincerely hope that the next version of Uru succeeds, and I hope that the community welcomes people no matter how unconditionally (or conditionally) they support the game.

Shorah.


I don't think anyone ever thought you were complaining demon-spawn. :) Welcome back, macnbc. :D

_________________
Can you withstand the gaze of the Eye of Eternity?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:43 pm 
I'm curious. What's a good reason to complain that doesn't have a possible solution? In other words, is it really any use to anyone to complain about a problem that can't be fixed?

Let me elaborate. (It is what I'm best at.) Gondar doesn't agree with those of us who say that complaints should be accompanied by constructive suggestions for how to fix the problem. The only reasons I can see for the two not coming together are (a) the complainer can't think of any, (b) the complainer hasn't tried to think of any.

I'm not saying that every suggestion has to work. I'm not saying every answer has to be right. But there is a clear difference between saying "This game has problem A and I think it might be better if we applied solution B" whether solution B is the right one or not, and saying "This game has a problem, I'm not going to support it and I don't think you should either" (as two people have said since the announcement was made). Suggesting solutions for the problem you're drawing attention to shows that you are thinking about it in a positive way. And sure, you don't have to show that if you don't want to. You don't have to prove anything to anyone, least of all one grumpy old heretic in Britain. You don't have to do anything. You don't even have to complain. It's your choice. But if you do one, why not consider doing the other as well?


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 4095
I will only say that I totally agree with Cyan about the way they have chosen
to run More or anything thing else about the future of Uru Live.

I especially like the fact that, this time around, they are not making any promises.

We now have more choices:
1- If we do not like Uru, we stay away from the game and forums.
2- We would like to see something new or different: We create our own age, prove
we can do better and stay away from things we do not like. (and shutup)
3- We just love Uru,....... and play it as it is.

Thumb-up Cyan.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 11:27 pm
Posts: 963
Sho' 'nuff is sho' 'nuff...

The only issues is that the core of the complaints tends to be repetitive, and those who argue on both sides tend to be completely inflexible.

...though, this is largely due to the lack of knowledge of the general public on how to engage in properly reasoned discourse. *sniffs dryly*

I remember getting into some drawn out argument with these two people when I first came to these forums before Myst Online even opened officially. What really got to me about it is that the people I was trying to have a discussion with kept re-hashing the same points and taking or adding nothing to it, then as I made reasoned points against them, they broke down into childish name-calling.

I don't think people know what it means for a reasoned argument to "hold water" anymore. Culturally, people have degraded into this "everybody is right" stuff that makes it impossible to discuss anything. Everyone has to navigate a field of eggshells and gosh forbid if you hurt someone's feelings.

People don't seem to grasp that reasoned argument demands emotional detachment.


~Joey "Socrates" Barbinjanjou

_________________
"What you still don't understand you have failed to hear or don't need to know..."~Yeesha


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am
Posts: 4134
Sophia wrote:
Whilyam wrote:
The question is often raised "If you don't like it so much, why are you here?".


:roll: Whilyam, you live in the past.The slogan is already changing to "If you don't like it, change it." (for an example of that see shameless link to own thread) Please don't bring up old issues AGAIN, will ya? Let the past be the past, and let's move on.... please. Want to improve something? I'm all ears, and if I like it, I'll help ya! :P That is the NEW way of thinking! :D

I predict the response to that will be "I want to, but I just don't have the time." This connects to what zander said:

zander_nyrond wrote:
I'm curious. What's a good reason to complain that doesn't have a possible solution? In other words, is it really any use to anyone to complain about a problem that can't be fixed?

The reason is to try and get people talking about that problem's solution. It should help us know where our priorities should lie. Whether or not the person has tried to think of a solution, I think our response should be "We'll try to work this out. Do you have any ideas how to implement this?". Also, even if they say "I'm leaving and you should to" our energies should still go into finding a solution to the problem, not waving goodbye.

Gondar wrote:
However, in that spirit, I think you're wrong on one point. It's NEVER us versus other games. We're not "up against them". They can shift the ground from under our feet. That's GOOD. It keeps us on our toes. A stagnant culture dies. Take those games as challenges... challenges to urge us to respond by proving what we know and what we can do. If you hate a game, hate it for what faults it has. But also... remember to love and praise it for what it gives too.

That was, in a sense, what I was talking about. Make this game better and don't alienate people.

I would say, though, that as the world economy weakens (and until it turns around) we would do ourselves a favor by treating this as a zero-sum game. Not by thinking "We're at war with Spore!" but keeping in mind "I should not alienate this person because they will leave to another game and because they will spread an image of an angry Uru community to the rest of the gaming culture.

I'd also like to add that it is really easy for us to say that we will try not to alienate people because we are at a low point. Low numbers of both users and Cyan staff give the community just a pulse. We need to remember this as we grow (and I think we will).

_________________
-Whilyam
Cavern Link:My IC Blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 83 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: