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 Post subject: Was it a test?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:56 pm 
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andylegate wrote:
I started thinking about how you contacted some of the leaders of the GoMa and GoW in private and wanted us to begin discussing the FCA proceedures in private, giving us some ideas to chew on first.

Seems to me that while this process IS an important one, it's also something that, if the beans were spilled so to speak, no harm, no foul really.

So I can't help wondering now, looking back and wonder: was this kind of a test for us?

How will these self proclaimed Guild and Guild Leaders react to being contacted by Cyan?
How well can they keep something private?
How well can they develop something and discuss it among themselves?
Can they actually work together on coming up with something that Cyan can agree too?


Ha, ha.
Yes, grasshopper. You have successfully snatched the pebble from my hand.

No, it was not a test. It was more of a progression of events. When MOUL shut down, some of us thought that there must be something we could do with the rights if we got them back but had no idea what that would be. So, on my last day I had a long conversation with Rand and Tony and we talked about how there must be some way to keep UruLive going... but we didn't know what.
After that, I was still reading the MOUL forums and noticed that GreyDragon kind of disappeared and then the MOUL mods are PMing wondering what is going on. So, I convinced Tony that we just can't let the community wither in the wind and some one should do something. Of course, Tony says, OK, how about you. So, I started working a few hours a day on the community management and then Tony starts sending me the legal requests as well and that is when I started to piece together an idea of having the Guild of Maintainers actually do the FCA requests for Uru. I wasn't sure Tony would in the end go for it and I wasn't sure GoMa would go for it... so that is why I contacted you guys in secret.
So, then after being in those discussions with you guys and seeing other things in the Uru community, I started formulating the roadmap and then the Tom Sowa article came out about GameTap holding the rights and then all of a sudden things are moving again. And it's been crazy ever since.

So, as you can see, there was no grand scheme... just one thing leading to another.

I think in the future, Cyan will probably look to the guildmasters and guild members for providing insight into their guilds and a sounding board for ideas and discussing ways that we can help each other build MORE. But I would hope that the guilds are transparent and that someone doesn't feel that they have to go through the ranks of guilds and masters just to get an idea across or be involved.

Thanks,
Chogon


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:42 pm 
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See? All of you, read! This is what happens when you read between the lines!

HAHAHAHA!

Actually what's funny is I saw this first before I checked my inbox..........watch what ya say Andy......


:Andy goes back to doing Maintainer and Writer stuff......which right now is answering a LOT of questions from people, hehehe:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:02 pm 
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Very cool progression of events. Nice. One just has to think that God does have Cyan held in the palm of his hand as a favoured son, as has been said by others. Let's hope he continues to keep an eye out. I shall do my best, in the Guild of Messengers. That is my forte - the writing of posts, the propogation of the message that Uru ain't dead yet :D

Bravo to that thought!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:18 pm 
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Wow... this is already breaking down and it hasn't even kicked off yet. I think maybe if I can't get the information to write my Ages myself I may just go elsewhere. I'm not going to argue with "Haha" people to get it so I can contribute to the game. I will certainly have to wait until I see how the Age creation stuff is disseminated before I decide where to put my credit card. :(

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:28 pm 
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SC I am sure there will be room for everyone to participate, the is a very real need and requirement to have a process to ensure that new mateiral is bug free and appropriate for the game, this is not Second Life and MOUL URU has high standards of quality that need to be maintained. But that leaves a huge area of creative room and the tools will be availalbe to everyone. Chogon has said repeatedly that they certainly want to ask for help from the Guilds but things will be available to everyone and everyone will have access.

the Guilds are a way of organizing our effort, but any of us can be active in anything that is happening, we are all equal. The skills and tools to make new material are specialized in some ways and take expereince or learning. And I am sure ppl will help with things that they know, I plan to, and i KNow from the past that many many of us will.

Keep optomisitc please. Nothing is breaking down, it is being built. :)

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Last edited by CrisGer on Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:30 pm 
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CrisGer wrote:
SC I am sure there will be room for everyone to participate, the is a very real need and requirement to have a process to ensure that new mateiral is bug free and appropriate for the game, this is not Second Life and MOUL URU has high standards of quality that need to be maintained. But that leaves a huge area of creative room and the tools will be availalbe to everyone. Chogon has said repeatedly that they certainly want to ask for help from the Guilds but things will be available to everyone and everyone will have access.


I was referring to some of the squabbling going on on the GoW site. I'm not sure I agree that a small group of people should decide who gets the plug-in source code. What if I want to use Lightwave? Or write my own modeler? ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:37 pm 
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The interface possiblities are limited i believe by the requirements of the engine, being sourced to 3dmax. and I am sure there will be access with reasonable range. I am a member of GOW and many of us are...and I do believe that things will work out fine, this is early days...and much to be discussed. The tool sets are something that Cyan has to decide on and oversee for techncial reasons and for the security of the eventual download and the vault I believe.

I think among other things the content will need to be strictly reviewed for appropriate content for family game content, and also for quality to keep the standard that MOUL is at graphically and story wise.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:57 pm 
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SCGreyWolf wrote:
I was referring to some of the squabbling going on on the GoW site. I'm not sure I agree that a small group of people should decide who gets the plug-in source code. What if I want to use Lightwave? Or write my own modeler? ;)

A small group will NOT get to decide who gets the source code.

From the press conference Q&A:

Chogon wrote:
Yes, [the 3DS Max plugin] is to be released to all that want them. The GoW is just the *mechanism* to get it out. (heh)

In other words, the GoW will host the file for unrestricted download. Anyone could use it to produce their own tools.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:33 am 
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This is one of the questions that I hope to put forward to Chogon for clarification. It isn't clear if he meant that everyone will have access to plugin binaries, and the source would somehow remain with the GoW, or if he also meant that the source would be available to all. However, the context in which Chogon provided his answer could be interpreted to mean that he includes the source in his consideration.

Here is the full context, with the question that led to that answer.
Quote:
belford: You (and the roadmap) mentioned releasing the 3DS Max plugin to the Guild of Writers. Right now, the GoW is literally defined as anybody who drops by the GoW forum and participates. So that means releasing the plugin to everybody. Is that what you want? Or do you see limiting it to a core developer team?

Chogon: Yes, it is to be released to all that want them. The GoW is just the *mechanism* to get it out. (heh)


This is still not clear to me, and I think this is one of the more important questions that still needs answering.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:20 am 
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From the Roadmap and Chogon's Q&A answer, I have high confidence he means the source to be generally available from the GoW as well:

Roadmap wrote:
+ Release of the 3DS Max Plasma plugins for creating MORE content. Release of the source for the plugin (only) to the Guild of Writers. This will allow for the easier creation of fan created tools as well as being able to use what Cyan used for creating Myst Online content.

I take this to mean, at the most, hosting of the source will "only" be permitted at the GoW, but access is public. Also, from Chogon's stated wish for Guild transparency, and for equal access to the creation of UCC, I would not think that things will be locked away from public access. But yes, the one blatant sentence we are looking for is not out there yet.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:52 pm 
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Why not just put it here instead then? Anyone could get it without triggering any anxiety attacks then. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:52 pm 
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My reading is that the only source code that will be released is that of the 3dsMax plugin. No actual engine code will be released. The plugin and its source code will be hosted by the GoW, because that's the logical place for it. Hosting the code on one of Cyan's sites would be wasting a good opportunity to give a Guild a useful, official duty. Also, the community will probably want to improve on Cyan's plugin, and certainly document it. That work should be available alongside the official plugin, and by having it all on the GoW site, Cyan doesn't need to devote any resources to the issue. The age development tools, like the ages themselves, will be able to take on a life of their own, without depending on Cyan to enact all changes.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:56 pm 
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Geez. I thought Chogon's answer made their intent clear enough. He says elsewhere that he wants to release both the source and the binaries (of the plugin).

I expect the Guild of Writers to be as open a source of tools and resources as the Messengers are of news and information. If Cyan hands us something that they want publicly released, we're not going to sit on it and pout. *I'm* not, anyway, and I'm as much a Guild member as anybody is. Would it help if I personally promised to link to all available resources? (We have a wiki, after all, anybody can do that.) I'll even offer web hosting space if the stuff doesn't wind up on one of the (several) GoW-associated servers.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:37 pm 
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From what I read, actually, he's giving the plugin to the GoW to release publically. However the source code he's giving to them so they can update PyPRP and such. I think releasing the source to the plugin is a guild decision. One that as noted can be coopted because of the current structure of said guilds.


I think in the end it'll get released to the public, both, the source a bit later. PyPRP will upgrade to have all the features of the 3ds plugin that they can work in. People will then work on ports to other editors, but those will come later.


And eventually we'll start improving over Cyan's tools, doing stuff they never expected. But that's more likely to be by a small group in the guild rather than an external thing by a genius. If not, well, so be it. Writing ages won't be locked by guild membership, but they do centralize resources and help...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:50 am 
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Gondar wrote:
From what I read, actually, he's giving the plugin to the GoW to release publically. However the source code he's giving to them so they can update PyPRP and such. I think releasing the source to the plugin is a guild decision. One that as noted can be coopted because of the current structure of said guilds.


I think in the end it'll get released to the public, both, the source a bit later. PyPRP will upgrade to have all the features of the 3ds plugin that they can work in. People will then work on ports to other editors, but those will come later.


And eventually we'll start improving over Cyan's tools, doing stuff they never expected. But that's more likely to be by a small group in the guild rather than an external thing by a genius. If not, well, so be it. Writing ages won't be locked by guild membership, but they do centralize resources and help...


It's not a good idea to let a non-Cyan entity decide who gets the plug-in source. I don't want to use PyPRP. I don't want to use Blender. What do I do, then? As I said before, if that's the way it's going to happen, I'll just continue working with other game engines. I don't have to be a guild member or ask anyone for the tools to create Source engine mods, but I'd prefer work for Uru.

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