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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:50 am 
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I guess I'm more than a bit discouraged that the majority of the discussion seems to be not "How will this serve the community?", "Is there room for immersive explorers in MORE?", or even just "Is this a good idea?"... it's all about the semantics of if it is a Guild or not.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:10 am 
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Well I think it is a great idea. With less Cyan control and fan control. I suppose immersivness will go down unless this Guild exist and do what they have to do.

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Last edited by Kalypso on Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:57 am 
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Eleri wrote:
I guess I'm more than a bit discouraged that the majority of the discussion seems to be not "How will this serve the community?", "Is there room for immersive explorers in MORE?", or even just "Is this a good idea?"... it's all about the semantics of if it is a Guild or not.

Eleri, do not let anybody(including me) discourage you.

Try to think about all the new gamers we will try to attract in More.

At least 50 % of them will find that your goal is quite ok and you
might even succeed in converting "some" of the old ones like me.

I will try to keep my mind open to new ideas and for new dreams.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:36 pm 
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Eleri wrote:
it's all about the semantics of if it is a Guild or not.


As far as I can see, 99% of Myst discussions are about semantics. ;)

And any group that promotes ICness immediately gets my official stamp of approval (which isn't worth squat, but still). It's going to be a hard battle, though; apparently, pretending that the environment around you is real is hard.

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 Post subject: Re: Guild of Imaginists
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:27 pm 
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Eleri wrote:


Eleri,

I think this could be a great idea. Whether it's a Guild or not, this could be a great opportunity and outlet for explorers to create our own IC storylines! Unlike the Guild of Fine Artists, this guild (or group, or house, or gaggle) would not be creating art, but living our own storylines... and isn't that what Uru is all about? :D There would also be a li'l overlap with the GoW, who will be crafting stories into new Ages, but a group like this could help link Ages, or work independently of Ages.

I tried using the email on the page (imaginists (at) dninetwork.net), but it keeps getting returned to me. Is there another place interested parties should go?

Excited,
Doug

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:38 pm 
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oh good grief, is our email forwarding being cranky again? *kicks webhost*

You can im me here, if you like.


And you've hit on a huge part of this...It was initaly suggested to me that it be called the Guild of Storytellers, and I said no... because immersive is not, in general, about making a storyline, and a plot, and having a cast... it's about just *being* the story, and letting story evolve around you.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:50 pm 
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Oh, Eleri, I'm sorry I haven't posted my support until now. I saw the post, glanced over the webpage and silently applauded you. :oops:

I fully support this idea and will do whatever I can to contribute (I just signed up). I loved playing IC and especially enjoyed the challenge of finding ways to speak about OOC issues in IC language. :D I really liked seeing this phrase on the website: ~ Immersive is Contagious- How immersive play enhances the environment. This says to me that we can spread IC play without being anti-OOC.

I recall something you wrote about how the time spent in UU may have contributed to the erosion of ICness and I'm afraid that's going to be true for many of us who are spending our time in places like Second Life. So, I see this effort as a necessity - although it shouldn't be, circumstances have made it so.

I don't know if the intention of this group is to do something like this, but I would love for us to assist Cyan in creating plausible explanations for some of the bumps in the road caused by the fits and starts and various incarnations of Uru.

If I have any issues with the name of this group, it's only that I really, really liked the original name of I.D.E.A. :wink:

Ian Atrus wrote:
It's going to be a hard battle, though; apparently, pretending that the environment around you is real is hard.

Really? Is this a serious or facetious statement?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:17 pm 
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Quote:
it's about just *being* the story, and letting story evolve around you.
Let me know Eleri when you have a hood and I will join up one Avatar, You can count on that. I would love to give this ago. I do enough writing as it is but trying to evolve a character, well it just sounds like loads of fun to me. For once it would be nice to escape, explore some of the older worlds like Kadish. The only time I have spent in these ages is when I am by myself.
I am getting excited writing about it, bring it on. :D
Szark

btw what's in a name, it's the intent what's important.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:34 pm 
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Eleri wrote:

Darned if you do, darned if you don't.


Eleri, I have always applauded you for your unique views and passion! But it hasn't taken long, again, for the discussion to turn from good ideas that have a place in the environment to the semantic discussions over the word "guild". It really doesn't matter whether a group decided that they are a "guild" or not. The cavern can house an unlimited number of guilds. I could declare myself the single and defining member of the Dni Guild of Historically Reproduced Baltimore Album Applique Quilt Artists and who is to say that is not true. The only restriction I can see is that I would probably never make it to "official" status with Cyan. Oh well. I can't say that was my goal. I just want a group that enjoys the same activities that I do.

If the cavern is to grow and the goal of more explorers is really to happen, then everyone will have to admit that anyone willing to pull a group together and do the work to make the cavern fun and exciting for those of a like mind, will have to be encouraged rather than dismissed over a word. We are not all going to be able to be pigeon-holed into the "official guild" category but gathered under the umbrella of one, if desired.

I am all for encouraging every group, whether is is "official" or not, called a "guild" or not - just because it means I am supporting creativity and free expression which should encourage more involvement and a more interesting cavern environment. The end result being more people in the cavern- making it a more exciting place to be. Seems like a win, win to me.

Don't get hung up on a word. Do what it takes to make it fun.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:58 pm 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
I don't know if the intention of this group is to do something like this, but I would love for us to assist Cyan in creating plausible explanations for some of the bumps in the road caused by the fits and starts and various incarnations of Uru.


Now that sounds fun! Call me crazy, but after the cavern closed this last time, I REALLY wanted to know how this fits IC. Sure, the DRC closed it down, so that path was closed, but what was keeping us from using Yeesha's Relto books? I don't know if answering these questions would be encroaching upon Cyan's "canon," but that doesn't mean that we can't try to figure it out.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:28 pm 
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I remember telling Tweek that Eleri might be on something much
bigger than first thought.

Reading the following posts is already like an amazing adventure in itself.

Keep the name of your "Guild" at all cost. It will become a great "flag" in the future.

The way it is going, they will even have to create an "Uru Manor" that will become
your home/castle or even the place where all other Guilds will be sheltered.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:34 pm 
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Artic_Wagon:

I really didn't think my post would be taken so strongly o.o I may have expressed my own personal opinion, but I really did mean it as an overall neutral post, expressing just that---my own *personal* opinion. A slight rearrangement of my first sentence may sound better: "Although I'm all for people staying IC in Uru as much as possible, I don't have a cow when people talk OOC." I *like* IC-ness, but I really am *okay* w/OOC-ness. On the same lines as what JWPlatt said, the last thing we need is "elitist IC police". That kind of mentality has hurt a lot of online & role-playing games. I *like* IC-ness, but people have every right to be OOC if they wish. There are unavoidably *both* IC & OOC elements in Uru, but which you focus on is your own choice.

Eleri:

Don't let this discussion path discourage you. Those other "questions" you'd like us to be discussing are certainly on our minds! But since the Imaginists would quite directly deal w/IC-ness & OOC-ness, we all just kind of want to know which of the 2 the Imaginists are.

I just feel that the Guilds are completely IC. The Writers write Linking Books, the Maintainers inspect them, the Cartographers map them, the Greeters welcome people into the Cavern's community, & the Messengers handle information w/in the Cavern's community. Certainly there's an OOC side to at least some of the Guilds (CG art, beta-testing, etc.), but the Guilds themselves as "D'ni Guilds" are organized *w/in* the story-line---IC.

Additionally, I personally don't *want* there to be tons & tons of Guilds. If every organization can call themselves a Guild, the Guilds will be "less special". And if we get tons of half-baked organization calling themselves Guilds, the Guilds-Group as a whole will decline in quality. There's nothing wrong with or "inferior" about non-Guilds---organizations like the Great Tree, the Cavern Activities Team, the Cavern Choir, etc., are wonderful groups! But it seems like the Guilds are supposed to be sort of unique & set-apart, and unified---and "DRC-approved". After all, it was the DRC who first announced the formation of the first 5 Guilds. And the current 6 Guilds (Archivists added) all serve a *vital* purpose in Uru---development of Ages (Writers, Maintainers, Cartographers, & Archivists), & supporting the Community (Greeters & Messengers).

I'm all for the purpose of the Imaginists---as you said, Immersion is contagious :) But I just can't see an IC function of the Imaginists, or even a need for any kind of organizational *structuring*. To me, the purpose behind the Imaginists seems to be more of a simple game-play philosophy/mindset than an organized group.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:53 pm 
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Its ok K'laamas. The feud between us two is settled.

As for the Guild of Imaginists, I will let others explain it to you in better words than I could. :wink: :lol:

I am secretly laughting at the thought that you could beleive they would playing in an OOC mode.

Sorry for the good laught. :oops:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:47 pm 
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What is the IC function of the Imaginists? Everything they do were OOC, albeit they support ICness. Merely recognizing the fact that IC and OOC exist is being OOC.

Quote:
I am secretly laughting at the thought that you could beleive they would playing in an OOC mode.

Where did he say they would be playing OOC?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:29 pm 
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Hmm. You could almost think of us as the keepers of the portal from the OOC world to the IC one.

To use a surface analogy... in the Society for Creative Anachronism, the events are all IC, but before hand, and on site, there's support for people getting ready to step into that IC space, everything from loaning basic garb to the casual folks, to helping people develop elaborate personas.

That's us, sitting on the occasionally very blurry but very large, gap between OOC and IC, and helping people cross without too much chaos.

And K'laa is right, it's not so much an organized structured group, as it is a gathering of ideology and mutual support. But, myself, I feel very strongly that there is a need for such a gathering. Over the last few years of Uru, I've heard many people say they felt the sense of "D'ni is Real" and being seeped in the Fiction of D'ni had grown faded, and that trying to be 'in cavern' (not even doing a storyline, but just being in cavern) was an uphill battle, because it wasn't the norm of behavior. So the immersive types became isolated, or just gave up. I don't want to see this continue, and become aggrivated by the lack on Cyan-run story, in MORE.

It's an interesting dichotomy... some people won't take things seriously unless they're labeled a Guild, other people have very strict ideas of what should be a Guild.

Having seen first hand what happens when an official Guild is named, even when something else already exists with the same basic job *shrug* This very easily could go back to being the Immersive D'ni Explorers Assosiaction as it was before, but then would it get the same amount of attention, or be shuffled off into the background cause it wasn't a Guild? Stuff to ponder.

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