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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:12 am 
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I think many are misunderstanding what the server configuration for MOUL was. We know MOUL had many servers running one shard (universe). There was also an authorization server. I doubt Cyan software has changed much. They were in the process of changing over from a GT related authorization to a Cyan controlled authorization. Exactly what we will get is unknown at this point. Plus Chacal makes some good points about home computers and connections not cutting it. I don’t know that is a fact but I certainly have suspected that is the case.

We can speculate about that but I think the only thing certain is that there will be multiple shards. Some people are going to do their own thing. Your AV and game state will likely be unique on each shard. I think it also safe to assume shards are likely to be group run projects. It may be possible to get a OSMOUL running on a single computer. But if so, I don’t see it being able to handle more than 4 to 8 players.

This thread is about whether the guilds want to run a cannon pure shard. Not whether it will be the only shard and NOT whether it will control other shards. This is going to be an expansive time with lots of new shards (I hope). So, learn to deal with that aspect of it.

The basic point of discussion is how many from the guilds and general fan base want to play and will support the effort of building a cannon pure shard. The community is going to have to pay for servers, electricity, and bandwidth. As a community riding on the backs of a core fan base is unfair to the core fans. Also, that fans paying the bill will control the shards they pay for, run and maintain should just be accepted as a fact of life. Because one’s only other choice is to build one’s own shard. So participate and support or do your own thing, which are about the only options I see.

The GoW and GoMa and GoMe are currently the active guilds, IMO. GoW and GoMa have the techies to make a shard and will likely have the first shard up. I also see them as desiring a cannon pure or cannon extended shard. Those wanting that should definitely step up and participate.

Alahmnat and the Archivists’ Guild are going to be one of the most important sources of cannon and game history. So, just from a mechanics of how things work I see the GoW, GoMa, and GoA as being the leading guilds in this expansion and the best chance at a close cannon shard.

BUT, I think it a problem if fans think the guilds will do this for them. The guilds are made of fans. It is fans that will put up the shards. So guild member or not, do you want to support a shard owned and operated by a guild or Inter-Guild group? Personally as long as I get a shard I’ll be happy. So, they have my personal support for the idea. Now we just have to learn what is needed.

Do you think a guild owned and operated shard will more likely stay close to cannon? I think so.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:37 am 
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Nalates wrote:
So guild member or not, do you want to support a shard owned and operated by a guild or Inter-Guild group?


Nalates, you brought up a perfect point and actually, you beat me to it, I was about to post a similar thought. I'll be perfectly frank, we are MORE than willing to support only Cyan with money (yes indeed). However, if the Guilds (or a Guild) are/is going to ask for donations, we shall probably set up our own... unless there will be a very compelling reason to pay money to anybody else. Say, it may enhance the chances of a united Uru environment no end, something like that.

I think it will be good to keep in mind that some might want to play Uru the way Cyan intended, yet not willing to join "the masses". Uru, to some of us, is enjoying a beautiful game with a few friends... so hopefully that is where the central dataserver may play a role :)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:38 am 
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Does "a pure canon shard" mean, in your opinion, a freeze of contents to the state it was when MOUL stopped?
What about new content?
What about opening new areas of the City?
What about developing new areas in existing Ages?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:56 am 
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As I mentioned elseforum, it seems that Cyan's intention is that there is a central Guild-maintained hub that allows access to other content on other servers.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:48 am 
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What leads you to believe that Cyan intends that the Guilds would maintain such a hub?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:57 am 
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Right. The article only says Cyan will host a data server.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:16 am 
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Eleri wrote:
As I mentioned elseforum, it seems that Cyan's intention is that there is a central Guild-maintained hub that allows access to other content on other servers.


More like comunity-maintained.

Having a main IC group group off shard is definitively a good idea. Will pose some problems though. Fist point, it will lead to endless fight about what's cannon and what's not, then there are the servers costs.

It will mean lots of people working together, so, we need some kind of structure, and there, why not the guilds. BUT if that happens, then said guild need to work together, be totally open (no more secret forum / lengthy inscription forms..) Someone outside a guild need to have the same chance to have his work in game. No denning him because he is not in a guild / don't get on well with the guild mater or whatever.

The guilds are here to serve and help the community, not rule it !

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:23 am 
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Speaking from an age testing perspective, the community is going to need a separate area from the in-play game to "break in" new ages. Since the community can likely create quite a few new ages once the tools mature, that need will be pronounced once things get rolling.

Wise testers will welcome fellow travelers, guild or not, who can find and detail bugs and/or aspects of known issues that lead to a fix in either the age's design or the code base supporting it.. Open source code creation works on that principle and works well. Having the guilds create a shard for this purpose, with allowances for everyone's input, is what will keep this game on the rails and flying right, in my personal opinion.

I joined the Guild of Maintainers and strongly support the work they have done and want to do in the future. And I also strongly support JW Platt's idea of OpenUru.org - a gathering place for open source spirit which will come up with things we need and must have, be it in terms of code, server fixes, or anything else you can think of. The guild structure is needed and thus a shard (or shards) for testing are as well. The individual who cracks the code base open is needed, and thus less structured shards are as well. the two will grow each other.

In short, I vote for a guild/interguild shard. And I also say - keep it open to those who have the desire, know-how and ability, but may not want to join a guild as well. Honored guests and equals - if you see my point.

Respectfully to all...

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:24 am 
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Apologies.

An SQL error on the board caused a double post.

Please ignore.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:51 am 
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EowynCarter wrote:
BUT if that happens, then said guild need to work together, be totally open (no more secret forum / lengthy inscription forms..) Someone outside a guild need to have the same chance to have his work in game. No denning him because he is not in a guild / don't get on well with the guild mater or whatever.

The guilds are here to serve and help the community, not rule it !

Unless I completely missed out on some explosion of drama somewhere (which is entirely possible... I have been rather pre-occupied with other efforts lately), to my knowledge every Guild has been operated in exactly the way you've specified. They all have an open forum and an open enrollment policy where anyone can join. To a remarkable degree, the Guilds were working together to establish a structure for UCC in MORE before the project was cancelled due to lack of resources. There were – and to my knowledge still aren't – any rules stating that you had to be a Guild member to get something into the game. In MORE, your content had to be approved by the Guilds, because Cyan said that was the condition for getting your stuff into the game, and the conditions for approval that were laid out had little to do with quality, and almost entirely to do with stability, both technically and canonically (my Guild, the GoA, would have overseen the canon integration). But you didn't have to be a Guild member to get that approval (or even gain access to the tools and resources necessary to build content that would eventually need approval), and this is something that was stated pretty clearly at the outset.

In this open-source project, if the Guilds co-manage a shard, I see little reason why that concept would need to be abandoned – there are people who are going to want to continue the story of D'ni and the story of Uru in as official a way as possible, and a Guild-overseen shard seems like the most likely place to do so, given Cyan's stated confidence in our ability to maintain an extended universe of canon. However, in this open-source model, I see no reason why the Guild-managed shard would be the only place you could add your content. If your content or story is turned down for whatever reason by the Guild-managed shard, there are sure to be other places you can showcase it, and that's totally fine (provided your content doesn't crash the shard, which may be a likely reason why it would be rejected by the Guilds ;)).

I fully agree with you, the Guilds serve the community, not t'other way around, and that's something that I think this plan calls for: a shard that would service the needs and/or desires of at least a portion of the community by creating a safe, likely canon-friendly shard for those who want to participate in it. Since the entire Uru project is open-source now, there's nothing stopping you from branching or forking the code and doing your own thing with it, and it isn't the intention of anybody in this thread to try to enforce such ridiculous restrictions.

One final thing to keep in mind: the Guilds are not some officious third-party or external entity bent on dominating Uru or the community. The Guilds are entirely made up of members of this community, volunteering their time and effort to try and build a better Uru together with – and for – everyone. They provide a framework for discussion, participation, and contribution aimed at making it as easy as possible to get involved, and are open to everyone. Nobody is off scheming or laying out mandates in a secret forum, and last I checked, nobody (except possibly the GoG, for what I hope are obvious PR reasons) has anything even approaching a long list of requirements for membership. Heck, at the GoA, you don't even have to be a Guild member unless you want to do something crazy like manage a Guild project... even non-members can contribute to the Archive there (you have to be a forum member, but that's a spam- and defacement-combatting move, not an exclusionary tactic).

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:14 am 
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Yeah, situation looks ok now. But I'm seriously worried about some proposition that where made when the guilds were set up, some now who acts like we shouldn't have anything but guild controlled shard (because oh my! Occ stuff, what a blasphemy !)

Then, the trouble with having part of the community able to tell what's allow and what's not, is that even with the best intentions, you're never really partial...

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:33 am 
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Please re-read Alahmnats' post you appear to be getting the wrong end of the stick.

Specifically GoMA is probably the only one at issue and its self remit is to protect the D'ni cannon within the limits set up by Cyan.

If the age has no contact or impact on cannon it passes muster. If however you try to rewrite Yeesha her abilities or history you may have issues.

The guild tries to take on legwork for Cyan and allowing them to stand aside from fan work and avoid accusations of plagiarism.

I have a story in work with GoMA as a writer that was written before these rules and guilds were put in place and I am working with GoMA to resolve those places where there may be issues.

I can write a story where I can imply things from observations and provided I paint them that way then they should pass cannon. GoMA give me an impartial independent third view that protects both Cyan and my IP rights before the story ends up in the public domain.

If you want an example.

I can't say

"Yeesha was in E'rcana last Tuesday embracing someone in an affectionate way"

But I could say

"I saw somebody that looked like Yeesha in E'rcana last Tuesday embracing someone in an affectionate way"

The first is given out as an observed fact the second is implication that it was Yeesha but is deny able.


Last edited by JKla on Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:25 pm 
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We'll see ;)
Maybe i'm just worrying about noting, but..

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:31 pm 
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Alahmnat wrote:
Unless I completely missed out on some explosion of drama somewhere (which is entirely possible... I have been rather pre-occupied with other efforts lately), to my knowledge every Guild has been operated in exactly the way you've specified. They all have an open forum and an open enrolment policy where anyone can join. To a remarkable degree, the Guilds were working together to establish a structure for UCC in MORE before the project was cancelled due to lack of resources. There were – and to my knowledge still aren't – any rules stating that you had to be a Guild member to get something into the game. In MORE, your content had to be approved by the Guilds, because Cyan said that was the condition for getting your stuff into the game, and the conditions for approval that were laid out had little to do with quality, and almost entirely to do with stability, both technically and canonically (my Guild, the GoA, would have overseen the canon integration). But you didn't have to be a Guild member to get that approval (or even gain access to the tools and resources necessary to build content that would eventually need approval), and this is something that was stated pretty clearly at the outset.

Nicely Put Alahmnat and from what I have read you are spot on. At the GoMe we have only one little (hardly used) section that is private. This was born out of the need to have a place to hold sensitive information awaiting release and we don't get much of that lately. Marten made a point of making our forum as public as possible (transparent) when he was GM. I eventually saw the light and conceded. Now I see it is the only way to embrace the whole community. Plus the FCAL has been covered enough to see that it could work nicely. I think I covered that in the Archiver. Ooo shameless plug.


Alahmnat wrote:
One final thing to keep in mind: the Guilds are not some officious third-party or external entity bent on dominating Uru or the community. The Guilds are entirely made up of members of this community, volunteering their time and effort to try and build a better Uru together with – and for – everyone. They provide a framework for discussion, participation, and contribution aimed at making it as easy as possible to get involved, and are open to everyone. Nobody is off scheming or laying out mandates in a secret forum, and last I checked, nobody (except possibly the GoG, for what I hope are obvious PR reasons) has anything even approaching a long list of requirements for membership. Heck, at the GoA, you don't even have to be a Guild member unless you want to do something crazy like manage a Guild project... even non-members can contribute to the Archive there (you have to be a forum member, but that's a spam- and defacement-combatting move, not an exclusionary tactic).

Being a GoMe messenger is not an easy job (we’re always getting shot at) :). Seriously though I am not one for hierarchy but I do see the need for some sort of leadership otherwise chaos would ensue. I like working hard for the Guild but I don’t want to be organising others, it is not may way. I am a worker not a leader. If I disagree with the hierarchy I try to in a mature and adult manner. On the flip side the leadership should recognise that it is a democracy within and outside their Guild, Group or Society. That we are here for everyone but also the community must realise that all these organising bodies needs the community to function.

We work together for a common purpose. I want to have fun with this and I suspect most of you do also. - Nothing worse when something feels like hard labour. One a personal note I am going to take things one step at a time. There is no point in worrying about “can we have this or can we fix that “now. - Get online first then go from there, get our houses in order ready for the flood gates to open. (Which reminds me the GoMe desperately need a webmaster)

Concentrate on the foundation and the rest will follow. For if our foundation is strong then Uru will prosper and not crumble under its enormous weight.

Having no clue about this server business I cannot comment. As for the GoMe’s involvement well I couldn’t comment on that either. You see we are operating with a skeleton staff, due to the lack of interest. Not as sexy as the GoW and GoMa. ;) but I hope that we will back this.

From what I can make out this seems to be a common sense approach to creating a stable and fun environment. I like it.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:01 pm 
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Off-topic:

The FCAL. Until we hear otherwise, the GoMa is going to assume that the rules initially laid out by Cyan still apply. That said, it's kind of moot because everything is still being run by Cyan. If you want to make an Age, you need to send your application to Tony at Cyan legal. If/when the FCAL panel and process are implemented, it will be acting on Cyan's guidelines. And if you don't like a decision, Cyan still has final say in whether it is approved. I kind of get the feeling that a lot of the people that are coming back (Shorah! by the way :D ) are still worried about the same things they were when the Guilds were first announced. GoMa stands for Guild of Maintainers, not Guild of Masters. We aren't here to enforce a code of conduct or to take your toys away. We inspect Ages. We aren't holding new Ages and saying "Nyah nyah we have a new Age and all those suckers don't". We are working to make sure that the Age is stable and playable and while we do enjoy that work, we aren't lounging around. If anyone wants to discuss the FCAL process more or has any questions, please take them to the Fan Created Art License process FAQ thread to try and keep this thread on topic.

On-topic:

No one is suggesting that an inter-Guild/community shard be the only one. What was suggested was that the Guilds work together to create and run a shard. That way resources can be pooled to create a better experience. The question is would you be in favor of one of the many shards being setup by the Guilds?

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