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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:36 pm 
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I suppose it comes down to what you mean by "change", chucker. Some changes to an existing Cyan age will be permitted and some won't.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:42 pm 
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Neither did I use the word "change", nor did I talk at all about the license, given that we don't know it yet. I was merely correcting your assertion that "what an age does is client-server".

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:44 pm 
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Sorry, chucker. I meant is (an example of) client-server interaction.


Last edited by Rusty_Russell on Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:49 pm 
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DarK,
I don't assume that a single person needs to be in-charge, and I don't assume that people need to be paid. That's the beauty of the way we are doing it. I think the way we are doing it is perfect for our community.

I do think that if the setup is very complex, and a lot of system and network management is needed - then I think it would work out better if people were paid. The goal would be (my opinion) to have the best trade-off between complexity and ease of management. This is always important, but extra important for volunteer work. There are only so many hours in the day. Most of us have to work for a living, and there's not that much time for doing something else, after you factor in work and family.

I do think that if it is going to be one shard, with a tight interconnection (one Nexus) - then one group, even one person, has to have the authority to make decisions. In the old days, that would have been Cyan, In our new way, there is no one entity in charge. I'm fine, I'm happy with our new scenario. I think is, that, given the way our community is, the way I think most fan organization are - that will necessitate having more than one shard. I absolutely think that some people will run things (be "in charge") because of their technical and business skills, involvement in the community and ability to lead and persuade. However, I don't think that one person, or one group will have ultimate decision making authority on how a 1 (and only 1) shard Uru will be set up.

---------------
Rusty (Chucker too) - I think we are saying the same thing. We can't change the look of the age, but different shards can (possibly) change something about the age, how it works. By my interpretation, that means we'll may have several different versions of the Cyan ages. I can't figure out how you could run different versions of the Cyan ages (say, two versions of the cleft) on one shard.

Personally I'm hoping for versions of the cleft and the other Cyan ages - with all the puzzles solved. I want to be running around in the ages, but I have no desire to redo the puzzles. I can reset all the ages but the cleft, so I can redo the puzzles, if for some reason I want to redo them. I've done those puzzles enough - I have no desire to to do them again.

---------------
I came up with another example where I think you'll need more than one shard. Some shards may want to implement different versions of the KI. Isn't the KI a shard thing and not an age thing?

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Last edited by mszv on Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:00 pm 
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Rusty - I think we are saying the same thing. We can't change the look of the age, but different shards can (possibly) change how it works. By my interpretation, that would mean we'l have several different versions of the Cyan ages. I can't figure out how you could run different versions of the Cyan ages (say, two versions of the cleft) on one shard.
No, I don't either. At some point you'd have to choose one. One shard, many data servers? ULM equivalent library download? Perhaps this is where the golden trunk comes in. Here again, I don't know how that would apply to a single shard.

What might be interesting and useful would be if those who believe in "One shard fits all" would outline the steps they envision to make that happen. We could then evaluate impossible / possible / if xxx and see if the vision is workable in some form or another. I'm happy to move from "can't can't can't" to "can, if" (which may or may not be possible).


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:13 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
Quote:
Rusty - I think we are saying the same thing. We can't change the look of the age, but different shards can (possibly) change how it works. By my interpretation, that would mean we'l have several different versions of the Cyan ages. I can't figure out how you could run different versions of the Cyan ages (say, two versions of the cleft) on one shard.
No, I don't either. At some point you'd have to choose one. One shard, many data servers? ULM equivalent library download? Perhaps this is where the golden trunk comes in. Here again, I don't know how that would apply to a single shard.

What might be interesting and useful would be if those who believe in "One shard fits all" would outline the steps they envision to make that happen. We could then evaluate impossible / possible / if xxx and see if the vision is workable in some form or another. I'm happy to move from "can't can't can't" to "can, if" (which may or may not be possible).


The way Ultima Online used to handle updated art was by having a redirecting patch system. New art "file blocks" were placed in a separate file and the loader used the new data instead of the original art file if the file/block was in the patch's index. Perhaps if we can do that with Uru it would also solve the problem of some shards not being exactly the same: a small folder could be created with the shard's name and the "diff" file could be put in it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:13 pm 
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@mszv and Rusty_Russell

Please stop over thinking the matter, the both of you are the two loudest voices (In this thread) pushing Until Uru style shard management and dismissing other options while pointing at the extreme end of how MO:UL could of been managed.

I could do pages of quotes and replies to ideas the both of you have voiced but I'm not going to bother, instead I'll just make this more general.

mszv asked a page back under my last post how many people would go for the more complicated many server approach over the simpler Until Uru version of one server for each Shard.

The simple and unenlightening answer is that some will.

A lot of the issues that seem to be getting imagined here will happen once every six or eight months as Ages are released, not every day. And while the tasks to bring Ages to "Life" are complex to setup your not changing that setup every day either. Despite the "Issues" MO:UL ran fine (mostly). You will be hard pressed to find a issue in MO:UL other fans haven't had to tackle years ago as every other game on the market that fans run a server to passed Uru by. What little that proves impossible for Us out of Cyan's gift will most likely be the things that proved impossible for every other Fan Server also.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:31 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
What might be interesting and useful would be if those who believe in "One shard fits all" would outline the steps they envision to make that happen. We could then evaluate impossible / possible / if xxx and see if the vision is workable in some form or another. I'm happy to move from "can't can't can't" to "can, if" (which may or may not be possible).


Well, I have no tech-fu in the area, so I'm not sure if my outline would make any sense from a technical standpoint, but I can try.

*Tries. Has lots of trouble finding the words*

Ok, lots of interconnected computers (servers, shards, chunks, whatever you want to call them) holding various bits of OSMO data. Basic Uru content is present on any of them, and works roughly like it did in MOUL...(with some of those instance fixes..) So, basically everyone logged in goes to the same instance of the city, can go to different hoods, ect. All of the computers would have the same information about those areas, and share information between them.

When an explorer logs in, it puts them somewhere in that cross-computer core content.

Now, when an explorer goes to Relto, they look at their bookshelf they say "Hmm, I want to Link to age X", and use the X book.

The system goes through, finds which computers have age X installed, and sends them to one of those. If Age X is a public age, everyone in Age X sees each other, even if Joe Explorer is on Computer B, and Jane Explorer is on Computer W. If X is a private or limited age, only the people with access would end up in the Age, but their data could be running on different computers.

Now, if someone wanted to make changes to Age X, but didn't want those changes to be public, then they'd actually be making X1, and it would be a different linking book than just X. The system could look at version numbers on an age. If someone made a public change to X, then a notice would go out to all the computer admins that there was an update to Age X, please download the update. Then book X would link to X v1.2

I dunno if that makes any sense at all.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:20 am 
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MustardJeep,

I don't think I'm overthinking this, but you are welcome to your opinion! I'm posting because I'm interested in the topic.

I think that what you are saying is that the technical issues are not that daunting - is that correct? So, perhaps it's more possible to do more interconnected system management than I thought.

How about the business issues? That's a different "kettle of fish", as they say. If people want to run different stuff, or do separate shards, I don't think there is any way to make it all one. To me, that's still an issue.

I'm also naturally conservative on the management and control of a system, and I focus on worst case scenario, and on what people can comfortably manage. I'm concerned that if everything goes through one thing, that thing will get too big and complicated and it will break. You are correct, I don't know that for sure. And yes, it's going to be up to the people running the shards, on how much interconnected stuff they feel they can comfortably manage. It's going to be their call.

------------------------

Eleri,

What if some groups wanted to run one version of the KI and some groups wanted to run different versions? How would that work? Perhaps I'm wrong,but I thought that was a shard thing. On ages, what if some groups wanted to run one version of Teledahn, and some another, both public ages. How would that be handled? Would you have two (or three or more) linking books, all with their own different names? What if groups wanted to run different versions of the Uru client (your interface to the system). I'd prefer it if there was one client, but there's nothing stopping anyone from running different versions of the client. Who gets to decide which is the official version of the client?

I'm also a little unclear on who gets to decide how the Relto bookshelf is organized, since that would be common across the whole system. If these links are in the Nexus, who gets to decide the structure of the Nexus?

I think your scenario depends on no branching, and I'm also a little unclear on how new versions of the server and client happen, not the ages.

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Last edited by mszv on Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:33 am 
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I'm hoping for a sort of Uru Directory. One log-in page with all legal, technically sound (basic tests would have to be done to show it doesn't just destroy computers at will - testing shards would be allowed though), honest (no shady scams, linking people to random websites for no reason, or other ways of using the code to deceive people), and reasonably Uru shards (i.e. you can't just put Tetris on the Directory to get more audience). One website (no confusing mess for newbies, oldbies, etc. to have to search through to find each shard's links). Some kind of semi-official marking system (so that canon shards, testing shards, near bug free shards, etc. are all marked clearly as such by some organization).


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:43 am 
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:lol: I deleted at least three versions of my post before deciding the one I posted didn't make me sound to much like a stuffed shirt.

If people want to run "separate" shards I'll happily bid them a fond farewell, But I can't shake the suspicion their not going much further then the kids going on a "Camping Trip" with a tent in the back yard.

Quote:
If people want to run different stuff


Oh I hope so. :mrgreen:

Just the one example of User/Admin/Regular KI is enough to make me do a happy dance. I don't see it as three separate KI's, just as one KI with options turned on and off as you stick your hand in the appropriate machine in the Game.

Hacking the game forcing incompatibilities should be something that is almost unthinkable since it is open source, but I am sure you are right people will try to do it anyway. :roll: Rehearsal was off in it's own corner so we know it's possible with the stock MO:UL system. I still choose to believe the implications Cyan is giving that the stock setup will be geared towards multiple servers working together.


Here's some food for thought as I go back to studying, what's taking so long?


The stock Server/Client setup, Cyan already had that they could have rolled that out with a few hours notice. Yes it would be closed source but no one would care as people spend a happy month settling back into the Cavern. One of the most logical explanations is that Cyan is altering the back end management of the servers so it's not as scuzzy a custom job as it probably was. I may be wrong but that idea feels fairly close to the mark, the best thing Cyan can do for open source Uru is making it compatible with the systems other game's fans use.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:57 am 
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I see huge practical problems with both shards and shard systems.

Shards:
People will get strung out, guaranteed.
A lot of energy will be focused on making things only compatible with shards that will fold months later.
Inevitable confusion.

Shard:
Leadership and unity is needed
People who want lots of freedom like AdminKI, purple smoking avatars, etc. will feel restricted.
People who don't want losses of immersiveness like flying, purple smoking avatars, etc. will be annoyed
The KI - people have so many differing ideas on what it should be like
Some specialized things: shards for filming/acting (with easily changeable areas, greenscreens, etc.), testing shards, etc. need separate shards.
Lots and lots of books
Relto Closet options

The best thing here would be to have the absolute fewest shards needed, and all accessible through one login. Hopefully, people will see this, and the least time possible will be lost in chaos.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:11 am 
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Loud and repetetive here, MJ. One shard fits all = global solution with one distributed database across all participating servers (one vault). (I have had to back off one global network). I don't have anything to say about the client/server aspect, only networking servers together.

Thanks, Eleri. The data files aren't really the problem as I see it. The database is. We'd need to set up one (distributed) database server and connect it up to everything. I can't see any way round one shard, one vault.

Think of a shard as a daisy. The client/server connections are the petals. The complications are with the network(ed server) and database components in the middle.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:38 pm 
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As far as I can tell, the concept of one "official" shard does not exist. If there is more than one shard, both are "official". No group of fans outranks any other - how could they. Perhaps you mean the shard that most people go to, if there is more than one shard.

I'll be interested in seeing what happens. I have my predictions - but heck, I've been wrong before. One shard, more than one shard - I'll be there!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:48 pm 
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Would it be possible to have one standardized KI, and then any enhancements, plug ins or extra commands be something that could be picked up in individual Ages, and work only in that space?

My ICish visualization is having a special KI dispenser near the link in point in an age that would upload an 'enhancement' to your KI, like the marker mishs did, or having extra security clearance in Gahreesen. And then it would unload it when you went to leave. You could even tie access to the link book out with having to unload the extras off your KI.

I suppose that's something for the technical forum, really.

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