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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:58 pm 
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What we KNOW so far:

There will be an open source form of MOUL

Chogon said:

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And in the same light that I'm not trying to change any points already made. But take what you know about Prologue and Until Uru and throw it out the window. Because that is what we did when we totally re-wrote the servers for MOUL.


Thanks,
Chogon


What we can do, and what form our variations take will depend on what they set up.

Some games that allow mods for multiplayer play require/must have the same mods running on that versoin. Basic digital physics. Infiinite personal instancing is not possible. Therefore, some system will be set up.

The first step will be I believe a restoration of MOUL as it was last April 9, with plug ins possibe and individual server set ups as part of a network drawing data from a central Cyan hub.

All else is speculation. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:00 am 
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Would it be possible to have one standardized KI, and then any enhancements, plug ins or extra commands be something that could be picked up in individual Ages, and work only in that space?

I can't see why not. Every setup should be able to work with KI 1.0, and some with 1.1, 1.2 etc, in the same way that vanilla KI worked on all shards and the versions of the Admin KIs worked on some but not others.

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The first step will be I believe a restoration of MOUL as it was last April 9, with plug ins possibe and individual server set ups as part of a network drawing data from a central Cyan hub.

This exercise is several complicated interlocking jigsaw puzzles. The piece missing from this overview is the vault.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:39 am 
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Eleri wrote:
Would it be possible to have one standardized KI, and then any enhancements, plug ins or extra commands be something that could be picked up in individual Ages, and work only in that space?

My ICish visualization is having a special KI dispenser near the link in point in an age that would upload an 'enhancement' to your KI, like the marker mishs did, or having extra security clearance in Gahreesen. And then it would unload it when you went to leave. You could even tie access to the link book out with having to unload the extras off your KI.

I suppose that's something for the technical forum, really.

I would love to see something like that (although I'm not sure how to IC explain it, and I'm not fully satisfied with that explanation), but I think that it is very improbable to happen. You see, everyone wants different stylistic things out of the KI. Some people want the "big KI" back, some want a very limited and very foreign and not working well technology KI, some want a magical KI that can pull up everything possible, some want a very strictly immersive KI, some want it to look snappy, some want added stylistic functions for clarity or other matters...

The same with avatars. Some people want to keep the avatars exactly the same, some want to be giant blue aliens sometimes. The same with the Nexus, with Relto, and with several other key shared areas.

Because of this, I think that there should be out-of-game separation of the shards, accessed by some menu. Avatars, Reltos, and KIs would be completely different. You'd have different characters in each one, but just one login and one website to start at. It's not the best, and I would love to see something occur that would make it unnecessary, but it seems the only way currently foreseeable.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:37 am 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
What might be interesting and useful would be if those who believe in "One shard fits all" would outline the steps they envision to make that happen. We could then evaluate impossible / possible / if xxx and see if the vision is workable in some form or another. I'm happy to move from "can't can't can't" to "can, if" (which may or may not be possible).

Ok - like Eleri I'll give it a try. This is strictly from a casual player's viewpoint - how I would want to log into and play URU. Whether or not it is even feasible I'll leave to the experts.

I want only one client - one point to get into the game and just one download of the basic Cyan Ages and those Fan made Ages that I have chosen to keep on my Relto book shelf. (I also think that this would be a good idea in order to keep newbees from going bonkers just trying to figure out which version of the game to join.) My "ideal" would be to have access to a Cavern that is open to all - where everyone from all over the world can meet and mingle 24/7. My Relto would hold the books that we were given in MO:UL plus those books of Fan made Ages that - as I said before - I particularly like and want to keep. What I want to do is be able to put my hand on one of those Fan books and go to the Age as seamlessly as I would go to Kadish or Minkata. I don't want to have to log off of one server and onto another just so I can visit a Fan made Age. Besides the ability to choose what Fan made Ages are on my Relto bookshelf, I want the ability to "delete" all the data of an Age if I need to free up disk space in order to try something new. Throughout all this I want to be able to communicate with my friends - no matter where they are - as easily as we did in MO:UL. I also want the ability to invite folks to my Relto and into any Age - Cyan or Fan - on my bookshelf as easily as we did in MO:UL.

Now, I realize fully that the URU I want to play is the "canon" version that was created by Cyan with Fan Ages added. I also realize that there are all kinds of "versions" of the game that are possible - including ones where ordinary folks can fly and sport purple skin, not just purple hair. :lol: Truth is, I would be curious to visit these various "versions" just to see what they've come up with but not if it means that I have to download - again and again - the complete game. So, what I as a player would like to see is maybe another "discovered" Nexus - that I can access through a book on my Relto shelf or in my Neighborhood - that will take me to all those various "versions" of URU as seamlessly as the current Nexus takes me to the Ferry Terminal. I also want to be assured that any such "version" offered in that Nexus has been tested and is guaranteed - as much as is humanly possible - not to crash my computer the minute I link to it. :wink:

Now - back to Fan made Ages. I want to be able to visit all of the ones offered (within reason - more on that later) and if I decide that I like one enough to keep I can then add it to my Relto bookshelf. The only way I can see to access all offered Ages at least once is a third Nexus - or maybe a section of the Guild hall - newly opened - where we find shelves loaded with all kinds of linking books (Fan Ages) there for us to try. And going to them is just as seamless as going to Minkata for the first time from the Library. Again - I would want to be assured that trying one of these Ages would not crash my computer - or add a trojan/virus. The difficulty will come - I'm sure - in what happens with the downloaded data of an Age I decide I don't like and don't want to keep. How would I be able to delete that data from my hard drive without causing a glitch in the game?

Now comes something that I think needs to be addressed. Let's face it. As much as many of us want to keep the family friendly version of URU that we've all come to know and love - once Open Source gets really going - there will be Ages and "versions" of the game offered that we might to varying degrees find offensive if not down right disgusting. So - one thing that will have to be addressed if a "golden trunk" version of the tree - such as I presented above - is actually possible, would be how to offer access to such Ages/versions yet at the same time give parents the ability to block said access to their kids, should they so choose. Also - I personally would like a way to know the content of an Age being offered on that Guild bookshelf before I visit it. This is so that if I find the content offensive or otherwise not to my liking I won't have to go through the trouble of download and then deletion.

Now I know that everything I've presented is just the tip of the iceberg - what you all are discussing about the KI being just one of the many variations that can happen - but I wanted to give Rusty_Russell an answer to his query from a casual player's viewpoint. Anyhoo - sorry R_R for the long winded presentation, but you did ask. :wink: :lol:

Apologies for the interruption - back to your discussion. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:57 am 
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Kero wrote:
I personally would like a way to know the content of an Age being offered on that Guild bookshelf before I visit it. This is so that if I find the content offensive or otherwise not to my liking I won't have to go through the trouble of download and then deletion.


I do agree. There should be a balance between keeping things at a 'family friendly' standard, and having spaces where adults can be adults without having to worry about being monitored.

Potentials exist like a voluntary g/pg/r rating system, or age verification, or a way to clearly identify minors when they log in. Sure, kids will find ways around that. They always do. If a kid is old enough to log into a multiplayer online game, the parents should be keeping an eye out.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:17 am 
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Eleri wrote:
or a way to clearly identify minors when they log in.


This is a horrible idea. Pedophiles and internet stalkers would be able to choose their victims more easily.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:31 am 
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I believe one of the Cyan people mentioned in another thread adrianbrooks that there had not been a single case of creepy people in MO:UL so rest easy. Eleri was most likely referring to Cyan keeping MO:UL E for Everyone but many people wanting areas where they can behave a bit more uh grownup. <snicker> Though in the case of the average explorer just turning the text filters off in a Age would get it labeled as MA by the community. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:12 am 
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single log in to a central "site" with many "servers" is being done all over

RuneScape implements it quite well , and there is no vault corruption

maybe i have no idea what i am talking about (that could be) but , I have played many games online where there is a central site to logon and then you pick the "server" on which you wish to play. AND there are different "themes" on many of the different "servers" yet still my characters and their attributes are not corrupted when i switch from one "server" to the next.

For simplicity sake, it would be much more attractive to the new player as well as to the veteran to have a single Login spot vs. hunt and peck searching for where in the world to find a server to play on. One of the biggest problems with UntilUru ,other than the kagi key thing, was how indepth a person would have to be to be able to find all the shards.

I never was able to find them all before they were gone.

even a central listing of logon spots would be a HUGE improvement. If you run a "shard/server/whatever" you list it there.

or i guess we could go back to hiding this thing from the world like before....

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:13 am 
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Btw , this server is giving me fits when i post ....still

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:03 am 
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even a central listing of logon spots would be a HUGE improvement. If you run a "shard/server/whatever" you list it there.
I see that as a job for the GoMe. Once access (likely because I'd expect to go through the same auth server anyway), one maintained directory listing ("telephone directory" / "holiday brochure").

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RuneScape implements it quite well , and there is no vault corruption
Is that one database per "server" or the same database across all "servers"?

Quote:
but I wanted to give Rusty_Russell an answer to his query from a casual player's viewpoint. Anyhoo - sorry R_R for the long winded presentation, but you did ask.
Thanks, Kero. I find it interesting that both you and Eleri are looking primarily at the petals. :)


Last edited by Rusty_Russell on Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:41 pm 
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I'm at work so I will keep this brief ...

Kero's post should be read and understood, as a player only, the points and insights these people provide are some of the most important with regards to development.

While the views every person puts forward will be diffrent, there is nothing more clear, than a persons first impressions!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:21 pm 
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Kero wrote:
I want only one client - one point to get into the game and just one download of the basic Cyan Ages and those Fan made Ages that I have chosen to keep on my Relto book shelf.
So do I.

Kero wrote:
What I want to do is be able to put my hand on one of those Fan books and go to the Age as seamlessly as I would go to Kadish or Minkata. I don't want to have to log off of one server and onto another just so I can visit a Fan made Age.
All ages (eventually) in one data server repository. [Nothing to do with the O-S code]

Kero wrote:
Throughout all this I want to be able to communicate with my friends - no matter where they are - as easily as we did in MO:UL. I also want the ability to invite folks to my Relto and into any Age - Cyan or Fan - on my bookshelf as easily as we did in MO:UL.
This sounds like an (IM) extension to the client.

Kero wrote:
Now, I realize fully that the URU I want to play is the "canon" version that was created by Cyan with Fan Ages added. I also realize that there are all kinds of "versions" of the game that are possible - including ones where ordinary folks can fly and sport purple skin, not just purple hair. :lol: Truth is, I would be curious to visit these various "versions" just to see what they've come up with but not if it means that I have to download - again and again - the complete game.
Agreed - but you never had to do that in UU. There was a vnode_cache folder for each shard you visited to hold the changes, but the basic initial download was unchanged. [You still had to log out of one shard and into another: setting up the new vault may mean that has to continue]

Kero wrote:
...another "discovered" Nexus - that I can access through a book on my Relto shelf or in my Neighborhood - that will take me to all those various "versions" of URU as seamlessly as the current Nexus takes me to the Ferry Terminal.
Single or linked data servers (back to the repository idea). The problem is again the vault.


Kero wrote:
Now - back to Fan made Ages. I want to be able to visit all of the ones offered (within reason - more on that later) and if I decide that I like one enough to keep I can then add it to my Relto bookshelf. The only way I can see to access all offered Ages at least once is a third Nexus - or maybe a section of the Guild hall - newly opened - where we find shelves loaded with all kinds of linking books (Fan Ages) there for us to try. And going to them is just as seamless as going to Minkata for the first time from the Library. Again - I would want to be assured that trying one of these Ages would not crash my computer - or add a trojan/virus. The difficulty will come - I'm sure - in what happens with the downloaded data of an Age I decide I don't like and don't want to keep. How would I be able to delete that data from my hard drive without causing a glitch in the game?
That sounds like tools build into the delivery of the age when you choose to download it. Here again, the problem might not be getting the age set up, but actually playing it.

Kero wrote:
Now comes something that I think needs to be addressed. Let's face it. As much as many of us want to keep the family friendly version of URU that we've all come to know and love - once Open Source gets really going - there will be Ages and "versions" of the game offered that we might to varying degrees find offensive if not down right disgusting. So - one thing that will have to be addressed if a "golden trunk" version of the tree - such as I presented above - is actually possible, would be how to offer access to such Ages/versions yet at the same time give parents the ability to block said access to their kids, should they so choose. Also - I personally would like a way to know the content of an Age being offered on that Guild bookshelf before I visit it. This is so that if I find the content offensive or otherwise not to my liking I won't have to go through the trouble of download and then deletion.
I don't know about a golden trunk, but I did suggest earlier a rating system for the age, where (E) or (M) or (10) was part of the description, so you knew what you were getting before you downloaded it, and that a directory of all ages and their ratings was held by the GoMe.

I realised that in all of my replies to Kero I was envisaging an external delivery tool (like ULM) - you build your game before you play it. That way you should have add / modify / delete options on the age you chose. The other side to that is that you'd only see that age in relto / nexus after the fact.

Thanks, Kero.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:56 pm 
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MustardJeep wrote:
I believe one of the Cyan people mentioned in another thread adrianbrooks that there had not been a single case of creepy people in MO:UL so rest easy. Eleri was most likely referring to Cyan keeping MO:UL E for Everyone but many people wanting areas where they can behave a bit more uh grownup. <snicker> Though in the case of the average explorer just turning the text filters off in a Age would get it labeled as MA by the community. :lol:


At least once a month I witnessed someone harassing another player with sexual innuendos during the MOUL run. It happened and it will happen.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:06 pm 
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Rusty_Russell wrote:
Thanks, Kero. I find it interesting that both you and Eleri are looking primarily at the petals. :)


Mostly cause I have no earthy clue how the middle of the flowers works. But my hope is to have a Really HUGE flower that I can buzz into, and then go petal hopping as I want. I'm a fundamentally laazzzyyyy bee, and a whole field of flowers is intimidating :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:42 pm 
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MustardJeep wrote:
I believe one of the Cyan people mentioned in another thread adrianbrooks that there had not been a single case of creepy people in MO:UL

That was a Cyan intern with a disclaimer at the bottom of every post.

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