What are reasonable fees?

jmdoggett · **Joined:** Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:33 pm **Posts:** 45

Obviously, gear, bandwidth and new content are not free. In my humble opinion, one needs to cover one's expenses and earn a profit for their service and work.

From that perspective, what is a reasonable monthly charge?

semplerfi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:47 pm

JWPlatt wrote:

I predict there are some here who will dog pile you for this. Pay it no mind. I think it's perfectly acceptable.

For what is worth, back in the day, Tapestry Shard took donations and EricL had more money then he knew what to do with. When Tap shut down we told EricL to go buy himself a new laptop with the left over moneys. :wink:

You run a good clean shard and I will pridict you will have lots of donations with moneys left over.

jmdoggett · **Joined:** Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:33 pm **Posts:** 45

Thats my plan. I wrote a novel and might like to turn it into a Myth age or just something separate. I might like to create new ages as well. I have the tools.

Mainly I'd like to create something good and fun... entertaining. But I am not Bill gates, can't afford to do it for free.

Sudre · **Posted:** Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:01 pm

semplerfi wrote:

For what is worth, back in the day, Tapestry Shard took donations and EricL had more money then he knew what to do with. When Tap shut down we told EricL to go buy himself a new laptop with the left over moneys. :wink:

Yes but back then EricL ran the server for quite a while before getting the donations. So you'd have to do everything up front and hope your's is better than anything else that's out there for free.
From what I see, Cyan is hoping that there will be a bunch of servers grouped together as one massive cluster. There will be loners doing their own thing but it will be hard to beat the bandwidth of several servers. If your content is good, I'd probably give you a few bucks... but with what I have seen so far it'd have to be really good.

Herohtar · **Joined:** Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:45 pm **Posts:** 2553

While I understand that servers aren't free and it costs time and money for the person running them, I'm not going to pay anything for an Open Source Uru that I don't know anything about. If I visit a server and end up spending a lot of time there and the content/story is of high quality and enjoyable, then I might consider donating, but if a server requires payment you won't find me there.

Sophia · **Joined:** Wed May 17, 2006 11:30 pm **Posts:** 1116

I would imagine there will be "commercial" servers and "friends-among-friends" servers... the first ones will obviously think about asking money and get as many people in as possible, the second ones may be selective who they invite and be sure to keep the bandwidth at bay. As far as I can tell, OS Uru will take all kinds of players, and all kinds of servers.
Let's not be judgmental right from the start, I am SURE we can all pick and choose our server(s), AND "shard owners to be" will be able to pick and choose their "players" :wink:

Reading back what's been said in this thread, I realize that won't be much different from the old UU days, actually.

Nerf Bludgeon · **Joined:** Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:11 pm **Posts:** 77

Chogon wrote

Quote:

Also, the architecture of the MystOnline servers is a *lot* different than the Until Uru servers. The MystOnline servers are very scalable and with some open source programmer help, it should be possible to have one shard (shard is not really a good term here) that has many servers, spread over the world but to the user playing, it will look like just one big server. And it should be possible to make them safe and secure.

I interpret this to mean that there will be one main "instance" of Uru that will require many servers all over the world to run. I would think that the easiest way to reimburse those running the servers is to have a donation button on this site. I'm not sure how much control/responsibility Cyan wants to have in this regard.

Chogon wrote

Quote:

There still will be rogue servers created, which is fine. But with organization by guilds and other fan groups, and good information, UruLive can still be great place to live.

I'm sure there will be several people that will want to run their own independent servers and they can handle the costs however they wish.

I will probably use the networked "instance" of Uru the most if it is like Chogon says it will be but I would like the opportunity to check out other independent servers from time to time to see what they're doing. Since I didn't play UU, my question is, If I'm logging onto an independent server that is asking for donations, is there some web etiquette on how many times I can log on without making a donation? I'm not trying to be cheap, I plan on supporting Uru, but I don't want to shell out $10 just to go see what someone did to their Ae'gura.

And on a separate note, as I re-read the open source announcement on the home page something struck me.

From the home page

Quote:

So, Cyan has decided to give make MystOnline available to the fans by releasing the source code for the servers, client and tools for MystOnline as an open source project.

I notice that the game itself is not part of the open source project.

From the home page

Quote:

We will also host a data server with the data for MystOnline. MORE is still possible but only with the help from fans.

I read this as Cyan still holding the right to sell these files even though I've been given the impression that they will be offered for free. I'm hoping that perhaps Cyan might make an age or two every year and sell downloads.

Todoni · **Joined:** Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:36 am **Posts:** 763

Anyone hosting a shard right now? That would be such a neat thing to find out.....

chucker · **Posted:** Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:11 am

Nerf Bludgeon wrote:

Chogon wrote

Quote:

Also, the architecture of the MystOnline servers is a *lot* different than the Until Uru servers. The MystOnline servers are very scalable and with some open source programmer help, it should be possible to have one shard (shard is not really a good term here) that has many servers, spread over the world but to the user playing, it will look like just one big server. And it should be possible to make them safe and secure.

I interpret this to mean that there will be one main "instance" of Uru that will require many servers all over the world to run.

No, it means that fans could, if they were so inclined, run such a main instance.

Quote:

I'm not sure how much control/responsibility Cyan wants to have in this regard.

Not a lot. It would hardly be in the spirit of an open source project either for a single entity to exercise control or carry responsibility.

Quote:

From the home page

Quote:

So, Cyan has decided to give make MystOnline available to the fans by releasing the source code for the servers, client and tools for MystOnline as an open source project.

I notice that the game itself is not part of the open source project.

That depends on how you define the game. Its Cyan-delivered content isn't; everything else is.

DarK · **Joined:** Sun May 21, 2006 11:51 am **Posts:** 510

Todoni wrote:

Anyone hosting a shard right now? That would be such a neat thing to find out.....

http://slackerslive.servegame.com/OpenS ... 6738bfaf9f

oh wait ...

Dachannien · **Joined:** Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:48 am **Posts:** 216

If you intend to make a profit doing this - or even to recoup your expenses - you probably shouldn't bother running your own server or shard. There are no guarantees, and I suspect that for most of us, the only people we would be willing to pay up front would be Cyan.

But if you are prepared to take a 100% loss, and you consider anything better than that to be a bonus, then have at it

Herohtar · **Joined:** Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:45 pm **Posts:** 2553

Dachannien wrote:

If you intend to make a profit doing this - or even to recoup your expenses - you probably shouldn't bother running your own server or shard. There are no guarantees, and I suspect that for most of us, the only people we would be willing to pay up front would be Cyan.

But if you are prepared to take a 100% loss, and you consider anything better than that to be a bonus, then have at it

I have to agree. Seeing as how Cyan couldn't get enough profit when they had most of the fan base paying them, I don't see how one could expect to gain anything from just a fraction of the fan base.

Emor D'ni Lap · **Joined:** Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:15 am **Posts:** 587

Herohtar wrote:

Seeing as how Cyan couldn't get enough profit when they had most of the fan base paying them, I don't see how one could expect to gain anything from just a fraction of the fan base.

Uh, when was "most of the fan base" paying Cyan?
Under Ubisoft?
Under Turner/GameTap?

Maybe I'm mistaken here, but I believe anytime money has left the fans' hands for Myst online services, it's gone to other companies first. And if we've gotten any specifics about the exact percentage deals that Cyan made with those companies, I've missed that info. Not knowing how much money went to the "front" companies, and not knowing Cyan's cut, I don't know how we can say much about what fans can contribute financially...especially when this open-source effort will be a new model in the game community, very different from previous attempts.

Regarding paying for services, I've said this before and I'll say it again:
Speaking for myself, if somebody is providing a great resource that I'm using and enjoying, one that cost them money to establish and/or to provide me on an ongoing basis, then I believe it is only fair that I help defray that cost in some nominal way. $10 or so every 3-6 months seems like a small amount to offer someone who is really working to provide a changing yet technically stable server environment that works well.

Likewise, if we're willing to pay Cyan for expansion packs of new, rich content, why should we not be equally willing to contribute to those freelance Agebuilders who have worked equally hard: that is, if their Ages show the equivalent depth and richness that we've come to expect from Cyan?

Certainly, I'm not saying that everyone should always charge for all their services - it's great when some of us can afford to share their resources and talents and time. But I believe that those agebuilders that have really gotten their feet deep into the process of creating intricately detailed, modeled and textured ages with animation and sounds (and even original music) will admit that it's pretty much impossible to turn out a Teledahn in one's spare time. If agebuilding is a full-time occupation for an individual or a small team, and we're enjoying the fruits of their labor, don't they deserve to be compensated for their work on our behalf?

Dachannien · **Joined:** Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:48 am **Posts:** 216

This isn't a question of whether people ought to be compensated for their time. It's a question of whether it's realistic to demand that people do so. In an environment such as this, you have to have a certain amount of influence to be able to charge for access to your service. People aren't going to blow a bunch of money on unknown content, unknown quality, unknown customer service, etc., especially when there are likely to be cheaper (i.e., donations versus charging a fee) alternatives out there.

There's really only going to be one group - maybe two or three, if they're really good - who are going to be able to charge for their efforts. That's whatever group has the most direct involvement with Cyan, most likely the Guilds. If they do charge for access to their shard and are successful with it, perhaps they could arrange some sort of revenue-sharing system to help the people who pay for the servers to defray their costs, but there's only going to be so much money to spread around (if any).

mszv · **Joined:** Wed May 10, 2006 5:28 am **Posts:** 2266

On the question as to whether we are going to all be connected on one "virtual" shard, one instance of the game - I don't think so. I don't think that's going to happen, at least to start. We've talked about this before. What you "could" theoretically do (not even so sure of that) doesn't seem to me what people will or even "should" do. But that's me - I could be wrong.

On the "paying" part - I think the issue isn't charging for Uru, really. I think the more interesting thing to see is the whole payment thing - what people will pay, what they will pay for, and how that it maps out - one time charge, monthly fee, different prices for things, all that. That's what's really interesting.

Your work and equipment purchase may not equate to a payment you feel is appropriate. It may (of course) but it may not. People aren't generally amenable to a cost argument - they think about what they are getting and whether it's worth it, not what it cost you do to it. It's also really hard to get people to pay for infrastructure, unless they feel they are also getting new content. That's what makes this so interesting.

Speaking personally, I'm amenable to a one-time fee, not so amenable to monthly fees, unless I'm reasonably sure of what I'm getting. For me "sure" doesn't just translate to a comfort level with the technical aspects. I'd be more comfortable with a monthly fee if I felt that the shard was well run with interesting changes to Uru proper, new ages, a good group of people playing on the shard, there was good support, and I felt that the shard and players would be around for awhile. Speaking only for myself, I think it's going to be difficult for fan run shards to get a monthly payment from me, but that's just me. Other members of the community may be happy to pay a monthly fee. I have a hard time justifying monthly fees for any MMO games, because I'm so intermittent a player. That's why playing Guild Wars works for me. Guild Wars is free to play after you buy the games. I also play Lord of the Rings Online (very intermittently), but I shelled out for a one time lifetime membership (a promotion), so no monthly fees. Like Guild Wars I pay a one time fee for the game and a one time fee for any expansion packs. I'm also reasonably sure that LOTRO is going to be around for a long time, but of course you never know.

If you are planning to implement a monthly fee - you can't play unless you pay - that seems like a decent amount of technical and business infrastructure to implement, starting off. Accepting donations or a one-time fee seems easier.

What are reasonable fees?

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