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Sophia · **Joined:** Wed May 17, 2006 11:30 pm **Posts:** 1116

Thanks for your explanation. I am not a mod, but I would like to be so bold as to suggest you and Fezz take your business private from now on, if you are indeed two different persons, you might get people jealous you know :lol:

I am sure we all await your joint effort breathlessly and with the greatest anticipation.

In the meantime, if you have any PRACTICAL suggestions how we mere mortals can improve on our age building, I'm ready to listen and pick up the crumbs that may fall from your rich table. :wink:

Dr. Worm · **Posted:** Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:58 pm

Y'know what, I apologize for my earlier comments. I got out of hand. This isn't something to start a flamewar about.

Nomad Prime · **Posted:** Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:16 am

Well, now that that's over with, can we discuss the topic at hand?

Admittedly, I'm no programmer, but I think I understand that what Fezz is suggesting is not as simple as it is made out to be. I think a good parallel to this would be linguistics. Say you know two languages, a complex one (Plasma) and a simple one (other engine). Now say you must write and present a speech, but the audience knows only the complex language. You have two choices here, either you write the speech in the first language, or you write it in the second for ease and preciseness, which is what Fezz is suggesting.
However, the issue arises that then the speech must be translated into the first language. This raises two problems. The first is simply that at this point, you might as well have just written it in the first language to begin with, and the second is that many of the figures of speech and other things wouldn't translate well, and the speech would be rather confusing to the listener. (i.e. program instability, errors, etc.)
If I am wrong about this, I am sorry, but this is what I believe to be the issue. It's not that it is set in stone that THOU SHALT USE PLASMA, it's just that it is, in the end, easier and safer.

CrisGer · **Posted:** Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:26 am

I guess this is March Fools Day as it is early for April.

Gooburn · **Posted:** Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:43 am

Thank you Nomad Prime,
You know, I was working on this letter to you, then GrisGer adds his peanuts. It never stops. I guess Plasma is the only game engine in the world. There has never been a game published besides URU, and the world is flat. The ostrich forgets how to fly, with its head in the sand.
Nomad Prime, because you have shown forum respect, not to mention respect of Cyan, I keep my letter to you.
What do you see Atrus?
Please allow me to begin with this. Plasma is awesome, It was great in its day, and Mr. B worked miracles with it. Until Plasma is better documented, I cant take the time with it much.
May I use this as an example. Say I am using a Linux operating system, you are using WinVista. Lets consider them each, as game engines, and they are not compatible. Communication is desired, while we use our seperate engines. So lets use Skype, Yahoo Messenger or any other means, that can be used by both systems. Now we have a common interface between the two. I did not need the code, for WinVista, nor for Linux. Actually I added, or piggy backed, a program that both could understand, and we could then communicate.
Well with MOULos, I have a little more work to do. At the distribution layer of MOULos, I think to keep the feel, I need to grab who is online, buddies and Age current status. Its not needed really, but try and keep it as real feel as possible. I can only do what Cyan will allow. I am waiting to read their OpenGL.
The next and last issue is this. Seamless transition, from Age to World, or World to Age. Remember the progressive load bar as the new Age loaded into RAM? This is what I desire Plasma for. Again, I dont need it, but it would be easier. I could use interrupts etc if I had to.
So these things are done, just now have to be done, with MOULos. My goal, is not to create Ages using Plasma. The time involved, does not reward me, with desired results.
All the above, quickly puts me at odds, with those who want to stay with Plasma. Perhaps thats why I have gotten such ... well ... less than positive replies. I am not opposed to any form of Age creation. I am not opposed to the nostalgia of MOULos.
However, Worlds are fun, fast and easy to build.

Paradox · **Posted:** Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:55 am

I would love to see where any Cyantist (past or present) has said that Plasma is a bad engine.

I've spoken to both Colin Bonstead (Engine Programmer, Myst V), Mark DeForest (Lead Client Programmer, Uru; currently CTO) and Brice Tebbs (Original Plasma Developer at HeadSpin; CTO for Uru: Ages Beyond Myst) about Plasma, and they both see it as an engine with enormous potential, potential that reaches far beyond Myst and Uru.

Also worth keeping in mind, Cyan is releasing Plasma as open-source. They are not releasing the content as open-source. The content remains tied to Plasma. As much as people say that it's easy to load the content in another engine, it isn't: The content is Plasma. The data is quite literally Plasma classes written out as binary objects.

Quote:

I am waiting to read their OpenGL.

Plasma isn't written with OpenGL, it is a DirectX application. One of my goals is to write a plGLPipeline system based from the existing plPipeline class and get Plasma to run natively on *nix and Mac.

MustardJeep · **Posted:** Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:09 am

Gooburn I have a old friend that liked to go in for these looming circular posts like your doing; Thanks for reminding me of him. As for the rest of it I am afraid that you will have to be more forth coming then your current posts. Cyan is very happy to issue third party licenses to any and all that can find the courage to request the use of part of Uru from Cyan's legal department. Sometimes the answer is no, but they always say why it's no or ask you to give more details so they can have a better chance of saying yes.

Most everyone is pinging you as a early april fools joke because of that fact.

@Paradox
Name Dropper!

Gooburn · **Posted:** Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:19 am

I agree, I can not find, any type regarding Plasma as a, "bad engine". I dont think its good, to start those types of rumors. Only write what you can prove. Only claim what is true. Put mind in gear before verbage.
Listing names means nothing. Correction if I may. Upon finding the article. Colin Bonstead signs the article as Lead Plasma Engine Programmer. I thought it was Senior. I am sure since you list them, you will want to do it properly.
You write, "I've spoken to both...", but you list three individuals. You mention,"both" twice refering to three individuals. You may be better believed if your count was correct. I am sure reading my replies in this post incorrect and beginning slurs on Mr. Bonstead with, "bad engine" when that was never intended, by me or Mr.B. Your reply can only be looked at as malicious, misleading and with intent to smear this post and the name of Mr. B.
I will happily provide my information, may I ask you supply your phone records?
No idea why you included your last paragraph, but you feel its important, so I thank you for it. I would suggest you be a little vague about Plasma binaries until it is finally released. Try and keep that stuff tight to the vest or refer to it in other manners.
Please only discuss the intent of this post. Others have interest and it has begun to speak of the issues.

Thanks for picking up my OpenGL error, I see you edited your reply to add that. I meant open source, but having an OpenGL book in front of me, my current project was foremost in my thoughts. You were very kind to help me.

ThedStranger · **Posted:** Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:25 pm

That's a strange thread... someone comes, saying that he is not very interested in uru (that's what I understood, but I didn't read the posts to their core, so correct me if I'm wrong), and recuiting forum members for this thing of him...

I mean, nothing wrong with that, it's just that I ususally see, in this forum, posts which are somehow related to uru- good or bad.

Again, nothing wrong here, just me wondering. Please continue

.

DoMees · **Joined:** Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:59 pm **Posts:** 27

This is very interesting. I think URU or MOUL would benefit from anything that creates ages for it. I need to get this off my chest if I may.

I have a little bit of knowledge on the subject. I will share what I do know. I see many wasted time answering this interesting topic. Three have shown genuine interest and the rest just so demeaning. I read the post from the day it was started, I saw and read the Gooburn post and since it was not addressed to me I continued onward when I finished.

After a few days I see this post grow. My heart sank at how I saw Gooburn being treated. Claims were made upon him that he never said. Out right character attacks were aimed at him. It seemed to me like a cancer trying to attack a healthy cell. I must give Gooburn a nod of respect. He weathered the storm. He did not rise in anger. To me that shows you had quality parenting and if a parent yourself your children are in good hands.

When we sign into this forum dont we have a code of conduct that we have to agree to? I am wondering where the code of conduct is from the moderators. What if a customer wanting to bring Cyan business is browsing these forums? What are they to think about this extension of Cyan? Yes allow different points of view, but most here are just vicious character attacks, and adding nothing. I want to know about the subject of this thread. How come it is a few in answer show to have one thousand posts and still have not learned how to conduct themselves?

My hat is off to Dr. Worm. After a couple of long attacks he returned with an apology. He had nothing to offer the thread subject but it was nice to read someone had some respect for themselves. Once again great parenting.

I like this URU thing. I now will not be purchasing the Iphone Myst tho. I wanted to purchase it just to help Cyan. I have played Myst and Real Myst so I wont waste the money. Plus I can play Myst at game tap for free so why waste the money. I feel many are out to destroy Cyan from within. Cyan allows this conduct so they must also not care. Maybe these forums created companies to withdraw support and business from Cyan. The idea is not to throw good money after bad. If the cash I have given allows this conduct then why continue to give it.

I tend to feel Gooburn knows what he is talking about. For no other reason than how he weathered these attacks. He has that respect from me at the least. Several others seem to have the knowledge to help in this discussion, but refused only offering strife.

I will hunt some information on this subject and bring it to this thread. This is a very interesting topic. It sounds like it has solid possibilities. Count me in, if I can help I will. I need a day or so but I will search what I can. I will try and contact some folks more knowledgeable than I am and see if they will be willing to help. From Gooburns description not a whole bunch is needed to do what he says.

ThedStranger · **Posted:** Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:45 pm

Yeah, I don't get why people get angry at gooburn. Your post, from some reason, gives me the feeling that I was attacking goorburn. So I'll just clear my words: there is nothing wrong with what gooburn said. All I said is that it's kinda wierd, because all the posts I saw until now, in this forums, are somehow related to uru and opinions about it. Just wanted the clear up what I said, I don't want it to sound like an attack.

zander_nyrond · **Posted:** Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:08 pm

Okay, coming to this fairly fresh...

Fezz made a good point: Plasma is fairly outmoded now, and there may well be something better out there that could be engineered for a continuation of Uru. The answer to that, from our point of view, is that what we are doing here, or will be when Cyan makes it available, is working within the existing framework of Uru, which is Plasma-based. It may be that some of us have the chops to construct or adapt a whole new game engine, and if so then that's great, but I don't see that happening till the techies among us have had a chance to go through Cyan's stuff and see what it does and doesn't do. And even then, it might be better for the people who can build a new game engine to build a new game. It might even be better than Uru.

And then Gooburn posts, and while I have no intention of flaming or being unreasonable, what is in that post is mostly air. I could have written it, and I have no organisation, no skills, nothing behind me. I don't think it's out of line to ask for some kind of supporting evidence that his proposition is actually worth getting involved in. It certainly sounds interesting, but so do those spam emails asking for help in getting huge amounts of money out of Nigeria or somewhere.

I can understand the reaction, is what I'm saying. If it's a genuine thing, then I'm all for it and will look out for developments. But taking a couple of hours to set up a website for this World Creation Campus would have turned aside a great deal of the flak.

Teedyo · **Posted:** Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:20 pm

Quote:

All the above, quickly puts me at odds, with those who want to stay with Plasma. Perhaps thats why I have gotten such ... well ... less than positive replies.

I think that it is mostly because you write many words and say very little.

Now to Fezz's suggestion of a new engine... That's been discussed many times. URU is inextricably tied to Plasma. It's all fine and dandy to create or use a new engine but, what is a gaming engine without URU's content? What is an 'AGE' that cannot be reached by the D'ni art of writing? Without Plasma you cannot have either. All you can have is a facsimile. We will be getting the source to the engine to do with as we please; not the Art, the D'ni nor their worlds. Those remain the uncontested IP of Cyan. License to use age elements has always been limited to use with the Plasma engine. I suspect it will remain so.

I guess this leads to the questions: When does a Plasma client, modded by the community, become something other than Plasma?? Will Cyan continue to license their IP for use with such a client?

Gooburn · **Posted:** Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:39 pm

I am so pleased, that this Plasma thing, is now behind us. Its great and I hope it gets dev'd further. I don't have much to offer it, but the little I need from it.
As MOULos goes, Age or World additions, supporting the concepts of URU, are good for the game, and the future
existance of D'ni. I am a huge fan.Engineering a new game engine, or upgrading the Plasma engine, will never be my
direction. Those wheels has been invented, let any tandem of, carry the D'ni load.
Now I ask you, ... do you want to create Ages or Worlds?
If the answer is, "yes, but I want it 100% Plasma.", then I point towards the GoW.
For those who remain, descriptively I ask.
If what you want, is to create Ages that work into the URU theme, listen up.
1) Your avatar, may have a different appearance and action, dependent on your
commitment in creating, or engine selected to drive it.
2) You will have communication with, other Cavern Explorers, whether in D'ni or not. The Great Zero, does not scan every age created by Cyan, but markers can be created for marker games. If you want the markers or GZ, you will have to create
that, if Cyan allows that type of thing.
3) You will have a seamless transition from World to Age or from Age to World.
Allow me a bit more of your time to say:
I am not trying to sell you anything. What you believe or don't believe, does not create any, burden of proof on my part. I have only done what is required, for Fezz to believe it.I would like to help if I could. Age or World creation can be so much fun. It is fast, friendly and meets or exceeds, the quality you know of with URU. You dont need programming, the code has been written, it works.
Can you cut and Paste?
Then you have the skills to create worlds.
Need textures? Need sound? cut and paste from a library. Need something original, but no skill to do it? Put an order in. Talent works for free admission, or go to a learning hub, and learn by video and interactive lessons, do it yourself then for
others, and earn admission.
Work as a community. I see Guilds in D'ni, but they are so factioned, arrogant, it destroys the desire of Age creation. Its a small few bad apples but as the saying goes...
World creation is free. What I am about to show you is not free, It's big bucks. It is intended as example only. They need public or groups purchasing to stay in business, so they have to be open for all. We have grants etc, but desire Fezz, to enhance the funds we recieve, and there in lies the difference.
Please understand, my hands are tied, but only in the short run, so be patient okay.
World Building

Url's removed

SCGreyWolf · **Posted:** Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:55 pm

I knew it had to be selling something... :roll:

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