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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:37 am 
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Well, consider MOUL dormant, no longer even on soon(tm) terms. You know you're still going to check every so often. It's not like we really expected it to be out soon.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:48 am 
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So, if Rand misspoke - then I think that Rand should say so. Everyone says things that aren't exactly what they mean. The thing to do is to correct what you said, publically.


Misspoke? After 1714 posts mostly of a negative nature, which were no help to Cyan or the Community, I take interest in the latest remarks. If OS does get released and I hope it will be in a way that is for the betterment of the whole community and Cyan of course, what does the present Cyan critic plan to do with OS? I would trust they have the ability to turn things around. HMMMMM!! This remark is very telling :

Quote:
I'm not in favor of Cyan running Uru. I think Cyan has shown us they can't do it.


WOW strong words!! 1714 posts do not represent an idle mind, what great plans might you come up with to rescue the situation?

I have like many others met Rand in RL and I have to say I have not met a finer gentleman. I myself, once being a professional film, stage and tv actor, do not idolize people readily, but I really look up to all the people at Cyan, their art form and ability boggles my mind. I find it disgusting the way they are treated in their own forum, or any other for that matter. I have met many lovely people in this game, but sadly, they are silent. So I make this challenge, it is easy to 'cut up' but what will you do for the good of us all if OS is released???? I would very much like to hear something positive for a change!!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:26 am 
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Hear, hear!

edit: In the general sense, since some that I respect have taken the comment by Murray personally.
But consider this. Take critisism serious. Even if it is disturbing at the moment of recieving it and even if it is in a tone you rather it wasn't (as also many here do).

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Last edited by Rudolfson on Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:04 pm 
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Murray, you can make this about me if you want, but it seems pointless. You accuse me of being "negative', but, as far as I can tell, I've never attached anyone personally on this thread. If so, I sincerely apologize - never my intent. Your posts seems negative to me, and it takes the focus off what we are talking about. If you say how terrible I am, and it becomes about me, then we don't get to talk about open source, is it coming out, and when. I think those are more interesting things to talk about, rather than judging people in the forums on whether they meet your standard on being a good fan.

We won't get people making interesting comments about what open source means, about the various flavors of servers, about do we want one shard or multiple shards, about what does it mean if we never get open source - all that. Because, when someone raises an issue, asks a question, wants clarification, the thread becomes about "them". I've seen it happen before, many times, and the people I admire are the people who respond to the attack intelligently and calmly. That's a goal of mine - to see if I can do that too. So, all you have done is given me is a challenge - should I ignore it, should I respond, or would that take things off track. Usually I don't respond, but today I will.

We have many, many posts cheering Cyan on. I'm sure Cyan knows how much they are supported. I think there is a place in this form for raising questions and issues. I'm not the only one doing that - do you object to the other people raising questions and issues too, or is it mostly me? The community is so small it seems pointless to me to want to make it even smaller because they don't fit your definition of good fan.

I thought Rand Miller's words were unclear, and what he's saying - it seems contradictory to what was said before. Do I think that makes Rand Miller a bad person, deceptive, any of that - no, of course not. I've seen Rand Miller speak - and he was an excellent speaker, warm and persuasive, and clear. What he said - it didn't seem clear to me, and again, seems to contradict what was said before. I'd like a clarification.

On Cyan running a server, well, let's think about it. We'd need some comfort level with them running a server, even if money gets tight. Do you have a comfort level with that? Given what they've done with open source, I haven't seen any evidence that, no matter how technically proficient and caring they may be, they can follow through with creating a stable environment for Uru, with no money coming in from Uru. I think open source Uru with multiple shards is safer. The risk is spread out among the community - it's also wonderfully creative. It also solve the community issue. Given how divided our community is not "one" community - it also gives people a way to spread out, to find the community that works for them.

Now if one funnel works out - if it all flows through Cyan, and it works - well, then I'd be wrong. I'd be fine with that, because, you know, this forum is not "about me".

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:36 pm 
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Hear, hear!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:46 pm 
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mszv, you totally don't get it :roll: You condemn Cyan for not being capable of running their own game, surely you must have a better idea then. What are YOU going to do with Open Source? Or are you just going to make another 1700 posts complaining about Cyan and everything they did WRONG? You always talk about "being a good fan" vs "being a bad fan", in fact we have no opinion on the matter. You can be anything you like. However, it is cheap and easy to constantly complain and post self fulfilling prophesies, but what are you going to do to IMPROVE the situation?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:46 pm 
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Zardoz wrote:
Hear, hear!

:P

Hear, hear!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:09 pm 
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Negative posts… those are what get issues discussed and problems solved. Posting glowing praise and listing the wonderful points of Uru and Cyan is nice but what does it accomplish?

Negative is not well defined here. So, it is hard to say Murry is right or wrong about nature of mszv posts. But looking at the first page of mzsv listed posts (15) (the fair minded reader should click and check it out) I would have to disagree with Murray. I only see one negative post (my idea of negative) from Murray in his first 15 and that is directed at mszv. Claiming that mszv made 1700 posts complaining about Cyan is over the top and certainly he did not get to ‘everything’ they did wrong… If one really wants to read negative (as I think Murray means it) in regard to Cyan for perspective, I can recommend a couple of forums and some posters. One should also note some of the most Cyan …negative… posters are big contributors to Uru and open source.

Asking mszv what he is going to do about helping Uru/MOOS/whatever is a good question for us all. I’ve posted where my interests are in regard to MOOS, what I have done to explore them and what I am waiting on and what I’m doing while I wait.

I can’t blame mszv for not trusting Cyan to run the game servers. The wanting to control content comment could be confusing to many and I think it is ambiguous. Especially if one did not watch the video. Every Uru server Cyan has run has shutdown. UU servers closed at Cyan’s …request. So, that one would become gun-shy and ask do you trust Cyan to run the server is not a condemnation or put down unless one wants to take it that way. Not wanting to be restricted to Cyan control of content is a desire shared by many.

Attacking mszv or any forum member rather than the points of their post is counterproductive and far more negative than debating the merits of the issue.

Rand was speaking off the cuff. It was not a planned speech, afaik. So, I think mszv wants more from the words than Rand put in. It annoys him that the words are somewhat ambiguous. In context Rand wanting to run the servers and control content came across to me as a desire not the plan, which the later seems to be what mszv has taken away.

While Cyan has said there will be limits on what we can do with characters and content created by Cyan, how much of the fan created stuff do we want Cyan controlling? I actually think the fans will do a better control job than Cyan and have a good deal of compassion for new age writers. So, I prefer fans controlling the fan content. That is not condemning Cyan. That is putting up fans. But one can look at it the other way around.

I too am shy of Cyan running the servers, unless it is in addition to fan run servers. I did not get that Rand was excluding those fan run servers. I was not even positive he meant a game server and thought about several possibilities. But several others seem to have gotten that it would exclude fan run game servers. So, Rand could have been clearer. But, again it was impromptu.

We will know when they do or announce something.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:06 pm 
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Quote:
Negative posts… those are what get issues discussed and problems solved. Posting glowing praise and listing the wonderful points of Uru and Cyan is nice but what does it accomplish?


Well said.

Here is a rather interesting and informative web page on Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate. This is a good time for some review maybe. :wink:

Code:
Introduction

This is a guide to using logical fallacies in debate. And when I say "using," I don't mean just pointing them out when opposing debaters commit them -- I mean deliberately committing them oneself, or finding ways to transform fallacious arguments into perfectly good ones.

Debate is, fortunately or not, an exercise in persuasion, wit, and rhetoric, not just logic. In a debate format that limits each debater's speaking time, it is simply not reasonable to expect every proposition or conclusion to follow precisely and rigorously from a clear set of premises stated at the outset. Instead, debaters have to bring together various facts, insights, and values that others share or can be persuaded to accept, and then show that those ideas lead more or less plausibly to a conclusion. Logic is a useful tool in this process, but it is not the only tool -- after all, "plausibility" is a fairly subjective matter that does not follow strict logical rules. Ultimately, the judge in a debate round has to decide which side's position is more plausible in light of the arguments given -- and the judge is required to pick one of those sides, even if logic alone dictates that "we do not know" is the answer to the question at hand.

Besides, let's be honest: debate is not just about finding truth, it's also about winning. If you think a fallacious argument can slide by and persuade the judge to vote for you, you're going to make it, right? The trick is not getting caught.


I love the last line. "The trick is not getting caught."


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:32 pm 
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Sigh. I really shouldn't spend the time, but it's painful to watch all this. I'll do my own parse on Rand's story time in a more reasonable fashion which trusts Cyan and assumes Rand is mostly reiterating things we already know. If this adds to the pain, I'll have failed, but it's worth a try.

Rand Miller wrote:
Rand: We ah, we, lets see here, We're rolling down the, ah, I'll make a story out of this...

Because he likes to tell stories and make things fun at Cyan Worlds...

Quote:
we're chugging down the open source path

Picture Er'cana and we're all on the harvester...

Quote:
because we don't really have anything else to do,

Except iMyst, Myst Movie, develop good ideas, and manage business income from existing products still on the market... I think Rand has understated their ambition because it's interesting within a familial gathering to tell the story in a humorous or lighter vein. To take it literally is to just not enjoy the atmosphere of story time.

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and we're hoping for things to do because we've laid off people

CyanTest. We knew that.

Quote:
we don't have any income

To speak of, but iMyst is there and so are game sales, such as they are. But yep, most income would be "in the future" if they can develop something or some company asks them to develop an online game...

Quote:
and we need kind of money and then this other deal came in where people said well hey, we'd kind of like you to use your engine and do this stuff for us,

MQO, as is now known.

Quote:
and suddenly Mark DeForest who was the engineer of the Open Source Train, choo choo -[makes pulling whistle cord motion],

And iMyst. And anything else that isn't our business...

Quote:
suddenly got involved in other things

iMyst and MQO. Known.

Quote:
and we have our plans laid of what we need to do, and some of it is just technical, we'll pull certain things out that are, that we’ve licensed that we can't just let the public use and we have to,

We were already informed of this by Chogon who seemed to indicate it was just one thing. Maybe that was a simplification, or maybe Rand doesn't know it's just one thing and leaves those details to Chogon. Rand is the CEO after all (the visioneer), not the CTO (the engineer) and delegates the details as CEOs should and often do.

Quote:
we have plug ins that we have to be careful with letting out,

Sure. PhysX, Bink, and Facegen among them, but he could also mean the 3ds max plugin which we already knew was coming with MORE, then also with open source. Are there also proprietary concerns with Autodesk? If so, it was already a concern even with the plans for MORE. Nothing new here.

Quote:
and we’ve got a plan about how to do it but suddenly Mark DeForest was engaged in money-bringing-in-work so that took priority,

iMyst, MQO - that we know of...

Quote:
so we still have no other plans other than to do Open Source

The message hasn't changed. It's still open source. It's still code in a public repository. And you can't control how things are used on other servers from an open source platform. You CAN release your IP (the content) under a different license and control THAT on your own server.

Quote:
and like to move it out there, this time we are thinking we want to do something a little different...

"This time," meaning open source instead of Uru Live, MOUL, or MORE. We already knew this and I read it as Rand thinking in terms of where Uru has been in the past and doing something different from that now - what we already know as open source.

Quote:
boy its been a while since we did all of this, and,

Meaning, since the last time they discussed things around the coffee machine and a box of donuts...

Quote:
..but it’s… we’d like to run the server, or run servers,

Yes, we knew this from the moment open source was announced. Again, nothing new. Cyan wants to run the data server to control the rights to their IP, their content - not the software. That's ALL it has to mean. That's all it probably does mean. Not the authentication or game servers which is where the community's paranoia lies. But with open source they, just like anyone else, could run their own game server to provide an official shard without restricting other shards. Just like Wikipedia can run their own servers and every website in the world can run their own wiki servers using the open source Wikipedia software if they want. The only difference to this analogy is that Wikipedia is open to sharing its content while Cyan will be protecting its content. As they should.

Quote:
but still have Open Source where people are able to build stuff and adjust stuff but

We knew this. User Created Content was even part of MORE with the release of the 3ds max plugin. And it's especially part of open source with the release of the code. Cyan said, "Cyan has decided to make Myst Online available to the fans by releasing the source code for the servers, client and tools for Myst Online as an open source project." Nothing Rand said makes this any less true. Notice also that Rand said in the video "adjust stuff"? Does that sound cool to you?! It at least implies partial licensing to some of their existing content and IP! Sounds like a little extra give to me rather than a change of direction and a take-back. It's making me think that OpenURU.org should make a fully realized "Descent" its first big project effort.

Quote:
We'd be more the keeper of it.

We already knew this. No surprises. Nothing capricious. That's because Cyan already said they will run a data server when they laid out their open source plans.

Quote:
mm. and see where that goes, cause it seemed like that might be a cool way to do it that way, we'd keep things going but its still passing thru a filter,


The data server, as we knew, as we were already told. Rand already talked alot about this in terms of not wanting to be like SL (but had nothing against SL for being good at what it is). He talked about it even before MORE. Cyan can only physically control content on their own servers. If all content must be served from their data server according to some licensing terms of the open source code, that's one way to do it. But everyone still can run their own auth and game servers and fit what Rand has described.

Quote:
m, but anyway that’s the plans,

The plans we already knew. I read it as Rand recapping things from the viewpoint of MORE going forward to open source and what was still necessary. For him, it must be more difficult to put himself into our timeline and our plans and try to remember what we know - "we" who are living here on the forums - than what he is really living with and concerned about at present.

Quote:
and as soon as really we run out of work we will get back on that.

That doesn't have to mean when they run out of contracts. It only has to mean when they are up to date on current work like iMyst or an MQO Chapter and doing okay on the time and the people needed for open source amongst all their other projects. Besides that, it was the end of story time and a good laugh is a great way to end it.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:53 pm 
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The amount of combined vitriol and ignorance being thrown around here is terrifying. This community, once large and thriving, has dwindled away due to a lack of content and interest, and whenever a new person does stumble in looking for information, they walk right into the middle of a war between people who want to keep Uru alive by actually DOING SOMETHING WITH IT, the people who want to keep Uru alive by RESPECTFULLY LEAVING IT ALONE, and the people who want to keep Uru alive by TELLING EVERYONE TO FORGET ABOUT URU AND PLAY ANOTHER GAME, BECAUSE IT'S JUST LIKE URU, BUT BETTER!

OBJECTION!

We are ALL dancing around on more grey area than there is sand in Minkata, and no matter HOW MORALLY UPRIGHT YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE, there is NO ROOM in this tiny shred of people that remains for this INSANITY.

The last few days, every time I check these forums I just give up, walk away, and don't even CARE about updating the IIMY topic, because sooner or later, someone will find a way to declare that IT IS KILLING URU. I'm going to lay myself bare here and let you all just take your shots at me after the fact.

Drizzle
Drizzle is incredible. It's added flavor, content, and ease of use to a lonely world that we drained of content years ago. Without it, the only options that would be available to most for Uru would be the worn out slice of content that we got back in 2003 and 2004. It's made it easy for people to access fan written ages, as well as doing some light shuffling around of original content, and returning MOUL and adding Myst V stuff for people who already played those games anyway. It's also a pleasant alternative from "OMG ROGUE SHARDS, THOSE ARE KILLING URU!"

Should ABM, To D'ni, TPotS, MOUL and Myst V files be provided to anyone who's never owned them? No, that's just outright stealing. Should MOUL files be provided to people who played MOUL regularly from launch to closure and then deleted them? You figure that out.

Without Drizzle, pretty much all that most people with an interest in Uru would have to do is come to the forums, complain about Uru not being MORE, Open, on Second Life yet and bicker about how wrong everyone else is.

Rogue Shards
"Rogue Shards" are often referred to as the "SOME" we get before the "MORE". They're pretty cool, because most of them allow for what's essentially Until Uru again... no new content, except for some fun screwing around on the admin side. But some of them also allow access to fan ages, allowing for multiplayer quality assurance and testing, which given how important fan made content will be in MORE/Open seems like a pretty great thing too. Besides that, when MORE or Open were to happen, anyone who wouldn't happily pay a fee to move to the "real deal" PROBABLY isn't someone who would have bothered to pay in the first place.

Should "Rogue Shards" provide free access to ABM/Whatever files freely to anyone? No. That's just theft again. But when people who already have the content are allowed to play together, that seems like a step forward from where we are now.

I have a great deal of respect for CrisGer, because he stands up for what he believes in, so this is NOT a shot at him. But once in the IIMY thread, when there was a flurry of fighting going around in regards to shards, he posted a few pictures of his avatar standing in various places in Uru, and asked "Do we really want to risk losing this?" to which I responded with "I see your lonely explorer in various places, and raise you pictures of crowds of people having fun together." and posted some pictures of some of the larger gatherings in MOUL. Because that's the very definition of Uru. People gathering together to celebrate a culture that they all enjoy and support.

Second Life/Blue Mars/There/Flavor of the Year
These all SUCK so far. This is only applicable to my experience in Second Life and There, but as well implemented games and worlds? They're pretty awful. I love the concepts behind this "everyone builds it themselves" games, it's been something I've wanted since I was a little kid. There's nothing wrong with these worlds either, since they provide alternate places to gather and enjoy each other's company. That's why I originally went to Second Life, to spend time with people I'd not be able to see in Uru anymore. Same with There.

No, the reason I make this declaration of SUCK is because of the growing number of people who feel as though they've learned some HUGE SECRET OF SUCCESS from these games and the way the graphics and physics engines work, as well as the programming languages provided. You can learn some basics of programming from Second Life... the stuff they make there is well beyond my limited knowledge of program code... but then when huge DECLARATIONS OF TRUTH appear about how THIS GREAT IDEA will REVOLUTIONIZE URU, it just leaves things in a state of shock and confusion, as to why you'd want to make the already slow and broke Uru run any worse than it already tends to.

But you know what? Those games still have their place. They still do amazing things, and let people play together as a group again. Just don't raise them up to be anything amazing, when they tend to be far below industry standards. Maybe Blue Mars will change that, there seems to be a lot of potential there.

So what's the point of all this? IT'S ALL GREY. ALL OF IT. We all have to make our own decisions at this point, until Cyan provides a way to do things "right", and given their current situation, that COULD be NEVER. I certainly HOPE that something happens, you should know at this point that I'm still clinging onto that. But right now, our alternatives are largely "Hey, let's do something with Uru" or "Hey, let's complain about Uru".

There's no right to jump on mszv, she's got plenty of reason at this point to doubt Cyan's ability to make MORE happen. Sophia and Murray shouldn't be attacked for their support of Cyan, either, because despite constant fumbles with Uru and Cosmic Osmo: Hex Isle, they're built a lot for us successfully.

If we break this community up any further, instead of holding together for people to rejoin us so we can grow again, there's going to be so few of us, that people will come back, see empty spaces, and leave again. Everyone here loves Myst and Uru, just in different ways... so let's try to focus on that main part. And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:00 pm 
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Well put Vid, you have expressed what I had been thinking of these threads and posts but was unsure how to put it into words.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:03 pm 
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My post was longer than yours, vid - measured vertically.

:P

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:08 pm 
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JWP, oh come on, save it for the men's room! :)

Besides, you stuffed yours with quote text! :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:12 pm 
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Don't make me whip out my post count on you, vid. I'm not afraid to use it.

:twisted:

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