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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:13 pm 
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Yeah well, my objecting finger is pointier.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:36 pm 
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We all are here because we feel strong connected to Cyan, their games and this community.
In a lot of things we are one group and have great discussions together. There are also moments we disagree with eachother.
Aslong that discussion is nice played there are no problems.
But we cannot tolerate that people start hurting eachother.

We do not like to moderate this thread, so we hope we can discuss further in a good and constructive way.

And to be honest: I am sure that will not be a problem! :wink:

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:04 am 
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How can we not support Cyan, who gave us Uru. How can we not support Uru, which gave us each other. How can we not support the good hackers who made possible a UU to court in and paved the way to MOUL. How can we not support Drizzle and other tools and the clever developers who keep refining them, which gives us a playground to learn about age building. How can we not support dear Veralun, who despite all the ruckus relentlessly keeps trying to keep order here. How can we not support the good people in this community, who stick around and make the best of an insecure situation. In actual fact, we support 98% of what goes on in here.
However. how can we not speak up when we perceive injustice... that is what we did. All we did was speak from the heart, but it is indeed no use to dwell any further on it. We want Uru to survive in the worst way, that is why we are hanging around here. We are not interested in all the dog fights... and for that matter, we are wrong to get involved in present debates since we are so pro-Cyan and also biased, so we apologize. We will be very selective what we read in here from now on, and even more selective what comments we make. When I was a youngster, I was always told "silence is golden". Finally I am beginning to understand and believe what I was told.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:43 am 
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How can we support Cyan who gave us Uru live and may give us Open source when they do not support Drizzle. Drizzle gave us an ever changing home that was once filled with people Cyan filled that world with people ,how can we support drizzle when Cyan who gave us Uru and a place for Drizzle when they do not support Drizzle, on one hand should we chose a side on the other hand can we support them both

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:48 am 
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I look at it this way: Cyan is neither supporting Drizzle, nor (to my knowledge) trying to shut it down. That gives us some breathing room. On the other hand, since you have to own Uru: Complete Chronicles, Myst V: End of Ages and The Well of Tears (I'm assuming Cyan is getting a cut of the book sales, since they created the CD-ROM) to use it, Drizzle is supporting Cyan. That, of course, is assuming you buy these products new, not used. (It also pays to be lucky/smart enough to have saved your old GameTap files.)

Surely some kind of deal - or, at least, understanding - can be reached here.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:13 pm 
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To be quite honest, Drizzle, and really the rouge shards for that matter, are really only the result of the void caused by the death of MOUL. They exist as an attempt make up for that loss. Should Cyan bring Uru back to us officially, I'm sure the vast majority of the community will choose the full Uru. Right now, Drizzle and the rouge shards are a patch for the dark Uru-less times we live in. I think the hard part about this right now is that Uru is available nowhere else.

Please note that this is simply my opinion and you have every right to disagree with it.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:10 pm 
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To the best of my knowledge, the reason Cyan is worried (note that they primarily stated that they were not Cyan-approved) about these 'rogue' servers is related to licensed plugins. They don't want to get sued, is all. I suspect that's all they intended to remove before they went open source, most likely.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:36 pm 
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I can make this very simple.

Cyan made URU, MOUL and all the Myst Games AND the D'ni universe and the story we all love.

Rand is the leader of Cyan and has been the leading spirit of the entire URU experince.

They OWN, repeat OWN totally lock stock and barrel the entirety of the D'ni world and all the rights therein.

They are willng and indeed eager to help us return to the Cavern.

they say, repeatedly and clearly and Rand said clearly in his Q and A very very clearly, they will SHARE but they will administer the shard. It is their game and their right and indeed their responsiblity.


WE,Most of us, with the exception of a small and nasty minority seek and are eager to return to the Cavern too.

Repeatedly over the years some of the small minority, and mods, pls note, i am NOT mentioning names nor will I for everyone knows who they are and what theyr actions have been, some have continually said that Cyan and Rand do not know what they are doing and cant be trusted with THEIR URU and MOUL. Well, i beg to differ most strongly, and I blieve that 90% of the sincere and true players of URU and MOUL will agree with me. They just dont bother to follow the forums and post repeadetly beating the same dead horses.

Cyan is one of the nicest and most sincere groups i have ever seen in game development and they are amazingly generous to offer to help us return to the cavern, when the time and resources allow. Rand was VERY CLEAR in what he said, i know becuase i am the one who worked for days and days to transcribe his words, his every word, and it is very clear.

They will, do, and should control the assets and run the servers. We as the players are lucky they want to share it with us, and I hope that the complaining stops someday so we can get on with enjoying the game and the wonderful community. The vocal tiny minority of naysayers are welcome to go to any of the hundreds of other online communities and the thousands of other games for PC and every other platform and stay there.....and Indeed I will welcome them leaving for they have tried hard to poison this wonderful community and our love of URU and MOUL with their constant negative carping and attacks, hidden in many forms of verbal slight of hand.

We are here because we love Cyan and what they do. Stop telling us to stop expressing that grattittude and appreciation. This is a forum dedicated to that appreciation. You have the rest of the immense internet to karp and complain and are welcome to it.

There is this one slim chance to return to the Cavern legally and in support of Cyan and all they have done for us. Patience is the price, and honour and respect are part of that price. I believe many of us can and will and are giving that price gladly. For others i wish you good day and happy journey elsewhere. Life is too short and one of the things I have learned in Life that is important almost beyond measure is to honour and respect our friends, and those who give to us as Cyan has over the years. This sticky is mis lableld. Cyan is NOT GIVING the fans MOUL, they are sharing it with us, and are going to, quite properly, quard and watch over their property, and preseve the quality of it. I am very grateful to all who have worked to allow us to cointinue here, the hackers who preserved and allowed URU to cointinue all who have worked since to keep it alive, and all who have posted in support of Rand and Cyan and their wonderful work to keep this dream alive. If you have other dreams that is great, and you are welcome to them but we here are here for the dream we share with Cyan and will be here as long as the lights are on and the fountain flows in the Bevin.

Shorah and Peace.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:55 pm 
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A community of interest is one that is bound by a shared passion. As is the case for most emotions, passion can wax and wane, and sometimes produces intense discussions. Members of such a community may disagree on methods and means, or they may break into factions based on beliefs about the best course of action. But because membership has no test other than a willingness to share that passion with others, the community is alive and vibrant.

A community based on fealty is one that is bound by allegiance to a person or company. Such a community must be policed, and any sign of disloyalty discouraged or punished. Members of the community are alike in their willingness to agree with one another because the basis for that agreement is simple: Does it agree with the person or company, or not? Because membership is based on homogeneity of beliefs and actions, the community is stagnant.

I believe this community is and should be one of interest, interest in Uru and all that it has been and all that it can be, not one of fealty. Your passion is an important part of this community, CrisGer, even if I passionately disagree with how you direct it. I would be dismayed if you or anyone else chose to leave, just as I would be unhappy to be driven out for my occasional disloyalty to Cyan.

Uru needs to be a Big Tent. Its survival depends on that.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:48 pm 
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Excellent post, Jaydubya. It really ought to be stickied or bookmarked somewhere as I'm sure it will come up again.

JWPlatt wrote:
Quote:
we're chugging down the open source path

Picture Er'cana and we're all on the harvester...

Heehee, funny line. But, um, you know that thing breaks whenever too many people get on it...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:10 pm 
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CrisGer wrote:
they say, repeatedly and clearly and Rand said clearly in his Q and A very very clearly, they will SHARE but they will administer the shard. It is their game and their right and indeed their responsiblity.

I agree with what you are saying except for this idea it clear. Many posts show people understood and took away different meaning to what Rand has said and Cyan types have posted. It is not just mean/nasty people that have done that.

The statement ‘they will administer the shard’ is one such point. Many believe Cyan/Rand to have said they will run the data server to provide their MOUL content to fans. We do not take that to mean a game shard server. They also have expressed they will manage a code thread as open source progresses.

The recent Q & A has many of us wondering he did also mean a game server. I took that he meant they ‘wanted’ to run a game server. I decided that if that was what he meant that it would not exclude fans from running servers. Others did take it that it would mean no fan run game servers. Either way it is just not explicit in what he said. One must make conclusions on other statements and posts.

Cyan/Rand has not made unequivocal all encompassing statements immune from varying interruptions. That is not a short coming of Cyan/Rand but the English language. Give that to puzzlers that seem to over think things and not notice and we have great verity of opinion. Clear or ambiguous is in the thoughts of the reader.

Everyone seems to want to see harmony among fans, hold the community together, even grow the community, have ideas about what the community should be, agree on directions and ideas and advance open source to have a playable game. But, as Zardoz points out many fans are passionate and get emotional in their discussion. So, often things go down in flames. No one seems to have figured out what to do to change things and reach these goals, which is why for a time I pushed adopting Wikipedia’s guidelines on personal attacks and why I found the PP Google Video important for fans to know about. That thread eventually provided examples of why the video is important for online communities. When one considers how we conduct ourselves on forum and the suggestions of that video, we then have something we can change in ourselves to improve the community.

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Last edited by Nalates on Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:28 pm 
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CrisGer wrote:
WE,Most of us, with the exception of a small and nasty minority seek and are eager to return to the Cavern too.

Please don't write things like that. People have reasons for writing what they do and the issue does not need to be further inflamed by misrepresenting what people are saying or trying to spin them off from the main thread of the community.

(For the record, I'm down with a Cyan-run server.)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:01 pm 
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I'm with Zardoz on the community of interest. I don't love Cyan. I'm into Uru, Myst, Myst III Exile (not created by Cyan, Cyan licensed the rights), Myst IV Revelation (not created by Cyan, Cyan licensed the rights) and Myst V. I'm not much into Riven, though I'm glad I played it. I'm not into the books. So - that me, the game, why I'm here. I'm part of the community of interest - it's a good community. Don't get me wrong - I've got great respect for Cyan, and I also think the Ubisoft team that created Myst IV Revelation is pretty darn swell! All of the Cyan folks I've dealt with have been great, as well as the Ubisoft folks.

CrisGer, your passion is impressive, but some fans aren't like you. I like how you express your thoughts and feelings - you write well, and your feeling are genuine. What I object to is the attempt to say that me, or anyone like me, is disloyal. I'm in the community of interest, though I'm happy to converse and understand the people who naturally reside, as far as I can tell, in the community of fealty.

On non Cyan run shards - not disloyal, in my humble opinion. Some people want to see what happens if you have a multiple shards to choose from. In my ideal world, there would be a Cyan run shard and other shards too - all things for all Uru fans. Some people want to take Uru as a jumping off point - what else can you do? This is not uncommon - they always say in MMO land that people play the game in ways that the developers did not imagine. Some people want to take Uru and create something - what an interesting thing to happen, unexpected if you ask me. I want to see what happens. I'd like a Cyan run shard too, to accomodate the desires of all the fans.

On Cyan running a shard, approving content, and anything else that goes along with Cyan doing something with Uru - my comfort level would be increased if I felt they had a contingency plan, a graceful transition for when they could not work on Uru anymore. The past is not a complete predictor of the future, but whenever you predict the future, you use the past as evidence, as data in your predictions. Cyan was working on open source Uru, and then they stopped because they got work that paid them. I'm happy Cyan isn't going out of business, and I wish the people at Cyan well, both personally, and so they make more games. But - considering that I'm interested in Uru, I'd like some idea that if I get in MMO Uru again, it's going to be around. The evidence we has so far is not promising. Cyan was working on open source Uru, they got paying work, so open source Uru stops, with no idea, no date, nothing on when it's starting up again. Going on past evidence, my comfort level with a Cyan run shard, running Cyan approved content - not high. Remember, I'm in the community of interest, not fealty, and I'm a big fan of evidence, of data driven analysis and decisions. I realize that the future is not the past - but ignoring the past to predict the future - not wise.

I don't see Uru making money, so spreading the risk around to several fan servers - that just seems better to me. When we had UU, with fan run shards, that worked. To me, that's evidence that multiple servers, multiple Uru shards, can work again.

This has turned into such an interesting discussion!

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Last edited by mszv on Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:03 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
Many believe Cyan/Rand to have said they will run the data server to provide their MOUL content to fans. We do not take that to mean a game shard server. They also have expressed they will manage a code thread as open source progresses.

The recent Q & A has many of us wondering he did also mean a game server. I took that he meant they ‘wanted’ to run a game server. I decided that if that was what he meant that it would not exclude fans from running servers.

This is what I believe they mean, and I'm not just taking that from the Q&A with Rand, but from all their posts since Chogon’s post announcing MORE.

I believe they would still like to host a primary "shard" where they have control over the content, including fan-created content. But, that they will allow other "shards" to host and test fan-created content and/or do whatever they want that doesn't adhere to Cyan's guidelines. That, IMO, would be the best option. Everybody wins.

Everyone seems to forget that, from the beginning, it was stated that the plan was "tentative and dynamic" - meaning they made no solid promises to us and we should expect the plan to change over time. That expection should have continued through their announcement about Open Source and even now, as they continue to consider options and decide the best course of action for Uru, the community and their business.

Basically, we're on a train ride with an unknown destination, but we're on it together, so sit back and enjoy the company until we arrive. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:49 pm 
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Nalates wrote:
But, as Zardoz points out many fans are passionate and get emotional in their discussion. So, often things go down in flames. No one seems to have figured out what to do to change things and reach these goals, which is why for a time I pushed adopting Wikipedia’s guidelines on personal attacks and why I found the PP Google Video important for fans to know about.

We are not allowed to talk about the changes needed to get to that goal. When anyone tries the threads and or posts are deleted. :(


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