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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:26 pm 
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Calam wrote:
they are more inclined to rethink the idea of just tossing the game to the GoW and GoMa.

What makes you think they were?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:29 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
Calam wrote:
they are more inclined to rethink the idea of just tossing the game to the GoW and GoMa.

What makes you think they were?


That was the impression I got from a lot of the early comments from Cyan; they would be "working with" the fans to get it released and running but the tone (at least to me) felt that it would be more in the hands of the major Guilds than anything else. It seemed like they were making it clear they wouldn't have the time or personnel to do much managing. Now more and more they're making it clear they want more control, which again, is fine, as long as they are willing to actually be involved.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:38 pm 
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That wouldn't be Open Uru. It seems a lot of people take it the wrong way when limiting the scope of open source to anything but worldwide. It goes way, way beyond a few IC guilds. Cyan would certainly maintain the main trunk and keep commit rights to it. They could, if they wanted to be involved, open and control an offical shard using their main trunk, or anyone else's fork for that matter. IC guilds could be an intrinsic part of that. And Cyan can license content via a data server. But open source is not limited to a select few.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:50 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
That wouldn't be Open Uru. It seems a lot of people take it the wrong way when limiting the scope of open source to anything but worldwide. It goes way, way beyond a few IC guilds. Cyan would certainly maintain the main trunk and keep commit rights to it. They could, if they wanted to be involved, open and control an offical shard using their main trunk, or anyone else's fork for that matter. IC guilds could be an intrinsic part of that. And Cyan can license content via a data server. But open source is not limited to a select few.




JW is right. Open source is just that: open, free for all. Were JW and me disagree is about desirability of this solution. He thinks (if I’m correct) that it’s the only way to have Uru again, perhaps even a better Uru. I think that simply it will be no Uru at all.
As open source is also a “Once for all”, with no way back, I still hope that Cyan will reconsider the whole idea.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:55 am 
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Clat wrote:
JWPlatt wrote:
That wouldn't be Open Uru. It seems a lot of people take it the wrong way when limiting the scope of open source to anything but worldwide. It goes way, way beyond a few IC guilds. Cyan would certainly maintain the main trunk and keep commit rights to it. They could, if they wanted to be involved, open and control an offical shard using their main trunk, or anyone else's fork for that matter. IC guilds could be an intrinsic part of that. And Cyan can license content via a data server. But open source is not limited to a select few.

JW is right. Open source is just that: open, free for all. Were JW and me disagree is about desirability of this solution. He thinks (if I’m correct) that it’s the only way to have Uru again, perhaps even a better Uru. I think that simply it will be no Uru at all.
As open source is also a “Once for all”, with no way back, I still hope that Cyan will reconsider the whole idea.


edit:
Okay, I guess I was wrong, the open source initiative defines open source as what people were saying above. I've removed what I said before.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:42 pm 
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I'd personally like to see the game open-sourced completely, with a multitude of shards, but to have there be a Cyan-run shard as well, filtered by Cyan Worlds, for those who want Cyan's vision of Uru, and Cyan's storyline, uncontaminated.

Cyan Worlds could (aside from story development) make occasional new content and sell it to members of that and (other) shards, or anyone who wants it.

I think open source is a good thing - put this in the hands of the fanbase so the fans can run it and build on it, and so we'll have alternate options should the next "official" Cyan-run Uru close like Uru Live and MO:UL closed.

The more Uru versions we have available to us, the more options we'll have should something go wrong with any one shard, and the more choices players have about how we want to play Uru. (Since we're a diverse fanbase.)

We can have an official Cyan shard with a great standard of quality and Cyan's vision played out, and shards with a mix of Cyan's content and the better fan-made content, and shards where pretty much anything goes and there are tons of poor-quality worlds available mixed in with the good ones, and hacks, etc.

So to me, it's not a question of Open Source Uru vs. Cyan-run Uru. I think the best option for our community is to have both.

That's what I'd like to see happen.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:46 pm 
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matthornb wrote:

Cyan Worlds could (aside from story development) make occasional new content and sell it to members of that and (other) shards, or anyone who wants it.


Sounds like a good Idea. perhaps Cyan can make a few more dollars of Uru Live after all, assuming they have some unpublished ages collecting dust some where or have the time to produce more

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:53 pm 
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For some reason I thought they used up all their content, what with the release of Myst V and the new ages they did for Gametap Uru. I don't know for sure.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:36 pm 
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Having read RAWA's post on what it takes to make ages, I think the idea of Cyan dusting off and tossing out an age every now then is very unrealistic.

Without a significant turn around in Cyan cash flow and some change in Uru popularity I can't see them being willing to invest any farther in Uru. Not that it can't happen, I just see it as highly improbable.

mszv may be right. I tend to think that most of the Uru ages in and even near the pipeline have been used up.

RAWA saying the pipeline was 6 moths long could suggest there were ages barely entering the pipeline. If we knew when Cyan knew the shut down was coming would let us reasonably speculate on that. Either way getting anything new from Cyan is neither cheap or easy.

Without an idea of what the license will say we have no idea what we can or can't do. Will shard owners/operators have to sign an agreement? To use the Cyan content I would think they would have to. I think that will limit the number of shards.

Will Cyan try to limit what fan content they can put on their shards? I don't think so. There might be some typical moral turpitude type clauses to prevent Cyan content and reputation being associated with lewd or violent content. But, I can't see them making restrictions beyond that. If Krill (I use him often because I love his dragon AV's in SL) has a shard and adds dragon AV's I doubt that would be a problem. Well... for Cyan. But who knows, they may try to restrict that.

Many have decided what they think Cyan will allow and are building what they would like to see in an Uru with fan content. Traveling through the fan ages we have now, I have yet to see something that people strongly object to. So, Cyan control is not something I anticipate or feel is needed. As best I can tell, Cyan seems to feel the same way and is headed toward allowing the fans to handle fan content. I only have every heard of them protecting their part of the story and their ages.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:01 am 
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My understanding is that Cyan has made it clear that they would like to have some level of control over the content in OpenUru; not only for legal purposes, but for quality control ones as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:27 am 
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Calam, without knowing what you are basing your understanding on... we just disagree.

There are a lot of conceptual changes from MORE age building and what Cyan and the guilds would do and what will happen in open source.

I see the approval of ages by Cyan as a complex task. Getting help from the fans in guilds where they can narrow down the contact points to something reasonable has a whole load of problems too. So, I see Cyan approval as a time consuming and labor intense task I think they are unlikely to take on.

I think it much more likely they will write a license that handles most of their concerns and only ever get involved when someone violates the written agreement. I think shard operators would have to sign the agreement to use the software or content. That gives Cyan some measure of control and reduces their contact points.

Whatever they do I suspect it will require minimal time and effort on Cyan's part, if any.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:46 am 
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mszv wrote:
For some reason I thought they used up all their content, what with the release of Myst V and the new ages they did for Gametap Uru. I don't know for sure.


You know your probably right and come to think of it even if they do produce more ages for Open Source and charge for them I can see some problems in turning a profit from them, considering all the work they take to produce.

Oh well

is it more yet

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:08 am 
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Nalates wrote:
Without an idea of what the license will say we have no idea what we can or can't do. Will shard owners/operators have to sign an agreement? To use the Cyan content I would think they would have to. I think that will limit the number of shards.

Will Cyan try to limit what fan content they can put on their shards? I don't think so. There might be some typical moral turpitude type clauses to prevent Cyan content and reputation being associated with lewd or violent content. But, I can't see them making restrictions beyond that. If Krill (I use him often because I love his dragon AV's in SL) has a shard and adds dragon AV's I doubt that would be a problem. Well... for Cyan. But who knows, they may try to restrict that.

Many have decided what they think Cyan will allow and are building what they would like to see in an Uru with fan content. Traveling through the fan ages we have now, I have yet to see something that people strongly object to. So, Cyan control is not something I anticipate or feel is needed. As best I can tell, Cyan seems to feel the same way and is headed toward allowing the fans to handle fan content. I only have every heard of them protecting their part of the story and their ages.


@Nalates:

Please read the official definition of "Open Source". ( http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd )

If Cyan is to give us an "Open Source" Uru, they will have to use a license that meets this definition. They may or may not release the content under an "open source" license, however if Uru is to be open source, at the very least, the engine would most likely have to be. To be clear this is the correct definition of Open Source. There is no other to be considered. There is, however, the definition of "Free Software" which one can find at http://fsf.org/ . (Note, that "Free Software" does not refer to software without cost, that would be "freeware" instead.) It is entirely possible that Open Source software can indeed be charged for, so it does not preclude Cyan (or, infact, others) from charging for the software. This is certainly something Cyan is aware of, and has been aware of since before the announcement, considering, if I remember correctly, that in the past they have released an application as "Open Source". I believe the license, was actually the GNU GPL, from the Free Software Foundation. Of course, I could be misremembering, but in this case, if it is the one I'm thinking of, the application is hosted at a site we can't link to here, or really, even mention.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:55 am 
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Kaelisebonrai, to meet that definition they would need to use a license very similar for the open source part. That is the correct and generally accepted definition of OS. But, there is nothing that MAKES Cyan use that. To say that because the world defines open source this way and Rand spoke those words and they were written on the MOUL –means- this is what they must do, are somehow bound and have no other choice… just does not follow. They are still free to change their mind, go back on their word or keep their word. I concede it is probable they will meet the OS definition and we can hope they had this definition in mind. But there is nothing to keep them from considering other options like, as you point out, GNU GPL or some modification they consider open source and we may not.

They said the Cyan content would be under a different license. I think that makes sense. They have not said much beyond that and that some things we could change and several things we won’t be allowed to change. That certainly seems to imply the content won’t be open source.

That content won’t be open source opens up several possibilities for controlling how the ‘open source’ parts are used in conjunction with the Cyan content. So, not knowing what they have in mind, we really know very little about what we will or won’t be allowed to do with Uru.Things like whether we have dragon AV's or not.

A number of us have speculated on what we expect the license to allow. Several have extrapolated from the MORE/FCAL information; others consider the information the limit. The current fan ages show the consensus in thinking among age writers. There is a huge difference between ‘knowing’ and believing and having a clear understanding of the probabilities of what we may get. I personally believe thoughts on OpenUru.org show what is needed and why and I believe something that allows those changes is most probable.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:14 pm 
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Except, the GNU GPL does meet the OSI's definition of "Open Source" ,and everyone else's, too.

Put it this way: If I was to call a Cow a Sheep, I'd be a liar, right? Either that, or delusional.

If Cyan calls something that is not open source, open source, they'd be just as much liars, or delusional as I would be, calling a Cow a Sheep.

You make it seem not very clear-cut, but it is.

If the supposed "open source" license does not comply with the OSI's definitions, it, put very simply, is *not* open source.

Again, I have experience on this matter, having developed for open source projects for a number of years.


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