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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:00 am 
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DocOlanA wrote:
But why? The DRC had clear reason for washing their hands of Yeesha's books rather than removing them - they really couldn't remove Yeesha's books if they wanted to, and they couldn't keep explorers out either because Yeesha kept giving them ways to link back in.

On the other hand, as long as the age isn't obviously falling apart I can think of very few reasons why the DRC, the GoM, or whatever governing body is doing approvals wouldn't approve it.


You proved my point here. Assuming there are shards, a system like Drizzle, or any other way for ANYONE to get a hold of User-made Ages, how could the GoM or any User-made body restrict the creation, publication or popularity of an Age?

By not putting IC restrictions on these things, everything becomes much, much simpler. If Cyan wants to worry about complexity concerning this issue, let them. If the DRC wants to worry about it, let them. Why should we, Explorers bent on fully exploring the Cavern and creating our own Ages, need to make an overly-complex answer to this question? If you enter an Age, you do so at your own risk.

Kind of a good little thing too, if we go back to the issue of what certain people prefer in an Age. If you don't like an Age, don't go back. You went in at your own risk. Why shouldn't that apply to all Ages? You don't know what's in there, but isn't that why you're looking at them in the first place?

Why hinder the "unknown" or the "unsupported" simply because they don't meet one group's guidelines? If you want to visit all Explorer-made Ages, or simply want to investigate an Age to see how different "Writers" create their Ages, you do so (say it with me):

At Your Own Risk.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:45 am 
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Um... it is an IC issue. It is entirely an IC issue. But that still makes it a legitimate issue. Hey, playing fan ages on the shards is going to be great, and I'll do it along with everyone else. But that will be me, at a computer, playing the shards. The main Cyan server is Uru. Uru is IC. Uru should always be IC. So IC considerations need to be taken into account.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:53 am 
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Fair enough. I was just sharing my opinion on this issue.

If you'd like an idea thrown into the mix, why not say that the Bahro are watching us in the absence of the DRC or Yeesha (at least what we can see) and are placing "safe" Ages in our path while taking away those that could be "dangerous?"


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:54 am 
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Doc,

You seem to lack some imagination here. You honestly can't think of a way that explorers can find their way to ages unapproved by the DRC, without Yeesha's aid?

If you think enough about it, you may realize there are a few places that the DRC can't control. Once again I think you are assuming something which is unlikely to actually happen. Are you thinking that all fan ages will be publicly displayed?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:16 am 
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People should be free to treat Uru as they wish, not be dictated that it is always IC.

As I have said elsewhere, we need two criteria:
1. Legality
2. Does not crash user who meets system requirements.

Objective, verifiable criteria. Not vague preferences of quality or bendable ideas of canon.

Uru needs a serious discussion on this, not an outdated one.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:16 am 
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BAD wrote:
Doc,

You seem to lack some imagination here. You honestly can't think of a way that explorers can find their way to ages unapproved by the DRC, without Yeesha's aid?

If you think enough about it, you may realize there are a few places that the DRC can't control.

Didn't you realize the DRC has secret powers? That it is by their decree that we must kick the baskets around in Eder Gira? Unauthorized books are child's play compared to those . . .


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:22 am 
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It's all about the OOCs and the ICs, isn't it? :lol:
DocOlanA wrote:
Um... it is an IC issue. It is entirely an IC issue.

I think the above statement from Doc clarifies what he was talking about earlier, but I feel compelled to emphasize a point that I didn't see dwelt upon in what I consider to be a sufficient manner.

I like what Tweek said:
Tweek wrote:
OOC Ages should be run through appoval, and given the Ok.

IC Ages should be allowed to have approval or not (like the choice of having a maintainers stamp on the book or not) otherwise you're cramping people's storycrafting.


From my perspective, most (if not all) of the Guilds are functioning in an overwhelmingly OOC capacity right now. It's only when we get into discussing topics like whether the maintainer's stamp will appear on a book within the game - and we're not to the point where that is a legitimate concern, yet, obviously - but when we talk about such a thing, we are treating the Guild of Maintainers as an IC entity.

So, if we want to avoid confusion, going forward it would help greatly if, when someone says "approved by the Guild of Maintainers", that person would also specify whether he or she means approved OOC or approved IC, before a page or more of discussion ensues with people not entirely sure of the context.

Now - my personal opinion - is that I will be very disappointed if every age that reaches the explorers has to be sanctified ICly. That would just be a huge killjoy; I think the plot mechanism of "unapproved Ages" has great potential beyond the DRC vs Yeesha history. The DRC seems to have made their peace with Yeesha... and, for the moment, the DRC have told us that they're now just explorers like the rest of us (no budget). So, the stage is ripe for new IC drama (read as: story) between explorer groups that have different goals in the restoration. One explorer group could complain that the Maintainers are carelessly approving Ages that are too dangerous to explore. Another explorer group could argue the complete opposite - that the Maintainers are holding back Ages and not releasing them. There could also be claims of Age theft or re-appropriation.

We just need to be careful that any cries of elitism IC are not mistaken for cries of elitism OOC.
:P

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:25 am 
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Cute Zardoz. But seriously, yes. I do think that the DRC, who are technically the only ones with a legal right to be in the private property that is the cavern, can pretty much dictate what books remain in the cavern. Oh sure, someone might slip a linking book in there, but if they leave it around it really won't take long for the DRC or a ResEng to find it and get rid of it if it's unauthorized. Even moreso if you set up the ages in the Nexus (which I think is far more likely), in which case each new age will have to be installed and called up via Victor Laxman's adaptation of the D'ni tech.

Oh, you could probably keep some non-approved ages in your Relto, but you only have so much shelf space.

And Whil, we simply disagree on this issue. You don't think IC is important, and I think that on the main Cyan server (and only the main Cyan server) it is the most important thing.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:28 am 
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I picked up on the ResEngs part. My assumption is that we aren't going to get more people employed by Cyan working on Uru -- Cyan is running the server and (a tiny bit) working on open source, that's it. I can't imagine them staffing up with other people, people employed by them. I think it's kind of IC, at this point, to assume that pretty much no one is in control, and people can do what they want. It seems to me you could posit any number of IC scenarios where players run into and write any kind of age they want. What am I not getting here?

Also, volunteers doing official Cyan work on the game, in terms of validating and somehow approving ages -- if you want to do that -- that's going to require management and an ongoing commitment from Cyan. I guess, given the slowness of the open source thing, that will give Cyan time to figure out what they want to do.

And again -- this is only for the Cyan run server/shard. Once you do open source, I'm assuming the other servers can incorporate any ages they want.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:39 am 
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You seem to be giving the DRC (who are currently and for the foreseeable future a non entity) to much credit, as many people do.

The DRC cannot hope to control Ages, all it takes is 1 linking book to get into the hands of a writer, for a connection to be made that can't be closed, he/she/it/squee writes a second link, a third, a fourth and hands them out, suddenly everyone has access and short of destroying the descriptive book (that they cannot hope to obtain) the Age cannot be shut down.

The DRC has tried the control thing in Cavern, shutting down areas of the city, shutting down the city, shutting down the cavern, and we found our way back in despite them.

[edit] typo


Last edited by Tweek on Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:40 am 
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Frankly I'm looking forward to it. After I get done with my current commissions, I'm hoping to put some time aside to learn how to use Blender so I can play with some fan-plots for shards myself.

However, on the Cyan shard, I really, really, REALLY want everything to stay canon and IC. I guess it depends where they take the story. If IC the DRC aren't down there, then I guess there is no need for a GoM or DRC stamp. I do still hope there's some Cyan or Cyan-appointed board of approval on the main shard, though. Just because I want to see the shard remain completely canon.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:47 am 
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Assuming that the DRC comes back (and that is an assumption, I know,) they'll have control more or less of the cavern and the Nexus. While they allow Yeesha's instanced ages to be traded via the Nexus and invites, those are all ages that, on some level, they have either approved or realized that they can't get rid of. While you are right, and people could just trade linking books, where would you keep them?

Perhaps it would be best to make some sort of object for your Relto, a book vault, or perhaps a personal Nexus machine not tied into Laxman's network (and thus out of DRC jurisdiction,) where you could keep non-approved ages. I just don't see how they could reasonably IC remain in the cavern or Nexus.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:54 am 
I'd like to think that there would be room, even on the Cyan-run shard, for all shades of opinion on the IC/OOC thing. Myself, I like the story and the roleplaying, so when I'm in Cavern I'm IC, but I'm not going to force it on anyone else. It may well be that once this thing gets going (assuming it does) there will be a polarisation of sorts, such that the IC lovers will gravitate to the Cyan shard (and any fan-run shard that makes itself IC-friendly) and the others will find their favourite fan-run shards...but even so, I don't think anyone should feel they're not wanted on the Cyan shard whatever they think of how I play.

I don't want to recapitulate what was said on the locked thread, but it does seem to me that Cyan's position parallels that of the DRC at the moment (or should that be vice versa?) They will have control over what Ages are or are not published on their server, but the degree of oversight they are able to exercise before making the decision is likely to be severely limited, and may be confined to Whilyam's two criteria, with maybe a quick scan by RAWA to check for glaring violations of his five guidelines. They'll be busy with other things (we hope) and the fact that they're willing to contemplate continuing to run an Uru server at all is a pure gift on their part. I wouldn't be inclined to count its teeth. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:57 am 
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OK, DocOlanE, I think I get it - you want someone at Cyan to continue working on Uru, continuing the story. You want them to commit resources (people, person, someone paid by Cyan) to that. You want their committment to be less "bare bones" than it is now. If there are fan ages on the Cyan server, you want them to become part of the canon, as if Cyan wrote it. The way I see it -- you might have some volunteers do a review, but Cyan would need to carefully go through and approve everything that gets put on their shard, because it would then become official canon, the official story of the age, even if Cyan didn't write it.

Right now, canon stopped. It just stopped. The way it is now, to keep it canon, no new anything. Assuming new stuff comes into the game again, you want Cyan to have people on staff to make sure that everything on their server is the official story of the world, even if they didn't write it.

I get it. I think it's maybe a bit unrealistic, in terms of resources and fan stuff becoming part of the "official story", but I see what you want.

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Last edited by mszv on Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:58 am 
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DocOlanA's stance seems to conflate Cyan and the DRC. If we're talking about Cyan's shard, they will control which files are accessible to users; if we're talking about the DRC, there are lots of places beyond their control or the GoM's that would allow renegade Writers and Ages some room. Quite frankly, having Tweek or Whilyam run around people's Reltos and neighborhoods, giving people access to their renegade Ages, is way more interesting than having Phil Henderson babble about colors. And getting at least some of the Ages out of the hands of the DRC (but with quality controlled by Cyan, if that's what they want for their shard) would allow way more latitude for player-generated stories.


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