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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:13 pm 
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Hi,

I don't know the answer to this and I am looking for suggestions. Obviously, Cyan doesn't have the staff to look at *tons* of changes (such as for the KI, etc.) and apply them to MOULagain. So, fan help is needed!
I think that some kind of peer review of changes (peers as in other fans) might work and then the best stuff is what is submitted for inclusion into the next build of MOULa.

Thanks,
Chogon


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:36 pm 
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Hello Chogon,

I would humbly like to submit this for your consideration http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20380. I created this list a while back after hearing about some of the really cool things that were once in the different phases of URU. While it does contain some of the communities larger wants I think is has a rather nice listing of the little things people would enjoy in MOULa. I've also just recently created some specific Threads for things such as Avatars and the KI. I hope this is useful and I hope I am not stepping on anyones toes or making people think I am trying to speak for the whole community.

Thank you

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:47 pm 
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jadawin12 wrote:
I would humbly like to submit this for your consideration http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20380.


That is a very nice list. But I was not looking for suggestion of what changes should be made but for how someone that has already created a change be submitted to Cyan for inclusion into the MOULa build. This is kind of the precursor to adding fan created ages and such into the "main" MOULa build. For now it would be for things like changes in the KI sources.

Thanks,
Chogon


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:48 pm 
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jadawin12 wrote:
Hello Chogon,

I would humbly like to submit this for your consideration http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20380. I created this list a while back after hearing about some of the really cool things that were once in the different phases of URU. While it does contain some of the communities larger wants I think is has a rather nice listing of the little things people would enjoy in MOULa. I've also just recently created some specific Threads for things such as Avatars and the KI. I hope this is useful and I hope I am not stepping on anyones toes or making people think I am trying to speak for the whole community.

Thank you


Hi Jadawin

Thats a cool looking list, perhaps some developers can do some work on some of those points in due time, however this thread is for discussing better ways for the community at large to submit final work to cyan.

This is to prevent cyan from getting 20 diffrent fixes and having to mash them together.

Hope this helps


Last edited by DarK on Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Chogon,

It seems that most people want this kind of system as well (peer review), however there currently is no way to review the changes beyond using something to convert the changes to a format that works with the current offline ways to play. Although this basically negates any additions to MOULa until testing servers can be created, perhaps getting the GOW or the GOMa to set up a site where new additions can be seen, explained, and voted upon would be a good start for now.

The structure of such a site won't be an easy thing to get approval of the community at large. Perhaps a better idea would be to find a way to get such a site up in Cyan web space. Therefore no one will question other fans motives.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:56 pm 
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Ah... sorry about that.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:21 pm 
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In most open source projects, new contributors post patches to a mailing list, and the experienced group looks for any issues. If none are found, the patch is accepted. After enough good patches, the new person gets direct commit access; they're trusted at that point to make good decisions and write good code. This "trust" decision is made either by the group or a Benevolent Dictator.

We don't technically have an "old guard" of MOULa coders yet. What we do have are the GoW and GoMa. The people in those groups have been... "adjusting" the offline Uru game for years. They understand what's good, what's broken, what's safe to change. They have the technical know-how to teach new coders and artists how the Plasma engine works. And let's face it... Plasma is wonky.

I would propose a two-tiered system. First, working with the GoW to flesh out an idea, get the code working, and general beta testing. Then, when you think it's ready, pass it on to the GoMa for validation and community discussion. This same process works for Ages, animations, KI mods, and whatever else.

An important point here: BOTH of those stages need to take place in the open. GoW conversations currently take place on an open forum and on IRC, so that's no problem. Whatever GoMa validation system is put in place needs to be clear and open. No secret meetings. Community members should be able to come in and comment on validation discussions BEFORE a decision is reached. These modifications affect everyone, and everyone should have their say. The GoMa already has a forum. Whether that's the right place for final mod validation is something that needs to be decided upon.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:39 pm 
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BAD ...

With the guilds, as you mention, I feel there is a need for undesirable crowd pleasing to happen to have your fixes/content approved.

The guilds are great for IC efforts however I sadly see them as ivory towers and a lot of what goes on in the guilds still seems too old school authority to me.

The problem with having cyan as the neutral ground is again requiring cyan to call the shots, spending time effort and resources on something that they have already said “we can’t do”.

I’m usually all for authority and control, but as this is “open source” a sense of devolvement needs to happen.

I think people need to claim the code/whatever with repositories (GIT, CVS, and Mercurial etc).

Once they have applied changes on their repo. Various other people working on the same code/area need to come together and manage that particular off shoot of the game (xKI, Server, Client etc), again this should come naturally.

Eventually a structure will form of people who want to work and control, and the people who are just happy hacking out code. As more elements to the game are released from cyan and projects start releasing, more leaders will head out towards grouping the overall picture together.

I think for now changes should be submitted to the forum on a thread somewhere, until the changes become worth a build from cyan.

Initially this gives dev’s a meeting place to get in contact with each other and start comparing notes. (I know a lot of people already know what’s happening, but thinking from the outside in and people just arriving to URU)

As well people can see transparency with development; Dev’s can come to overall consensus “time for a release, etc” this way.

Eventually as we outgrow the forum threads, we can move on to different websites, wikis, forums, polls and votes.

For now I think less planning is more, as long as other people know what other people are doing, they can join in ... or do their own thing.

I know people are eager to get started with submitting changes, but I think waiting and letting the structure start to form will benefit everyone overall.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:44 pm 
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DarK wrote:
The guilds are great for IC efforts however I sadly see them as ivory towers and a lot of what goes on in the guilds still seems too old school authority to me.


OK, I have to comment on this. I can't speak about the GoMa, but the GoW is extremely decentralized. We show off projects and share ideas, but there is no central authority to say "you can do this" or "you can't do this". If we (as individuals) think something is a bad idea, we'll certainly say so, but those opinions are not the Guild position.

That being the case, the GoW is the perfect place for the sort of project growth you describe. You create your project, set up your repository, then you share your ideas and try to recruit help from others.

EDIT: If this post wasn't clear: The "authority" you speak of is a myth. It simply does not exist in the GoW. We're a fairly loose organization.


Last edited by PaladinOfKaos on Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:47 pm 
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Set up a Mercurial repository (or repositories).

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:51 pm 
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PaladinOfKaos wrote:
DarK wrote:
The guilds are great for IC efforts however I sadly see them as ivory towers and a lot of what goes on in the guilds still seems too old school authority to me.


OK, I have to comment on this. I can't speak about the GoMa, but the GoW is extremely decentralized. We show off projects and share ideas, but there is no central authority to say "you can do this" or "you can't do this". If we (as individuals) think something is a bad idea, we'll certainly say so, but those opinions are not the Guild position.

That being the case, the GoW is the perfect place for the sort of project growth you describe. You create your project, set up your repository, then you share your ideas and try to recruit help from others.

EDIT: If this post wasn't clear: The "authority" you speak of is a myth. It simply does not exist in the GoW. We're a fairly loose organization.


Do you have Masters and Various Positions of Authority?

If there is an already pre-defined structure, how flexible is it to change?

I've seen this from your website: http://forum.guildofwriters.com/viewtop ... f=47&t=838 - gonna see about reading through it


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:59 pm 
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We *technically* have a loose structure of councilors, but honestly... I've never seen it really applied in practice. For example, Hoikas is the "Councilor of Technical Direction", but I haven't seen him try to direct anyone else's project, and if he did he'd likely be voted out of that position very quickly. His "leadership" role, if it can be called that, is handling the forum and making sure the web server stays up.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:03 pm 
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PaladinOfKaos wrote:
We *technically* have a loose structure of councilors, but honestly... I've never seen it really applied in practice. For example, Hoikas is the "Councilor of Technical Direction", but I haven't seen him try to direct anyone else's project, and if he did he'd likely be voted out of that position very quickly. His "leadership" role, if it can be called that, is handling the forum and making sure the web server stays up.


I see ...

Seem to be de-railing this thread away from chogons original request, so I will leave it here.

Thanks for the information Kaos :)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:23 pm 
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If there's anything OpenURU.org can do to support review and testing, we'd be happy to help with existing or new resources that might be required.

I don't really know how testing is going to be done without authorizing a server, or using Cyan testing resources, (or using unauthorized servers), but we're willing to consider project ideas and provide any resources we can.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:47 pm 
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Chogon

I'm no expert on writing code or maintaining open source repositories, but I think you (Cyan) need two things (at least) to help you bring fan-derived mods into the core code:

1. Expert advice: A trusted community to supplement your manpower by looking over stuff and working with you to bring it into core. Whoever you pick, someone is going to have reservations, (as this thread already shows) so you should just pick a group you feel you can work with ie who would you trust to tell you what is good enough to run on a Cyan server.

2. Test beds. I think these are just shards run by bits of the community - individuals or groups. The owners decide which mods can be run on their shard and people sign up to use them on the basis that they are flaky and may "crash and trash." Like Cyan beta/rehearsal servers of the past, but community run and with a bit more risk associated. I'd certainly do this (ie use, not run one!) for a bit of fun and to contribute to things.

I see new code being submitted to the test beds across the community and the best being brought to the attention of you and your experts through achieving popularity and plaudits eg in forums such as these. You could then work with your expert helpers to move the most mature things into core.

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