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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:08 am 
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To (finally) clarify my comments earlier...

I said this:
Marten wrote:
I think the people who've left permanently to pursue fan ages are proverbially small potatoes, and unimportant in the long term. I'm pretty confident that the majority of people who've left or idled have gone on from Uru altogether, to other games and worlds and communities. Sometimes, they check back in to see if things have changed. And eventually, due to the chronic slowness with which the MORE plan has progressed, many just give up.
That upsets me a lot more than a few people who've left because their impatience leads them to try to take matters into their own hands.


I narrowed my dismissive-ness with the word permanently for a reason. Regardless of how much bad will is present between Cyan and some writers, I know that content creators ultimately want their creations to be experienced. The audience size for experiencing content in MOULa far outweighs what's available by other methods. So when the day comes that fan content can appear in MOULa, the number of people who've left "permanently" to pursue the Art is going to suddenly seem a lot smaller than it might seem now.

Tweek wrote:
Who are we to say one group of people are more important than others? As one of these people who has left to pursue fan Ages, I'd like to think my view on uru is still as important as the next guy.


I never suggested that one group or view was more important than another; I expressed a concern about raw numbers. There's a greater number of non-age-writers who've gone absent, likely permanently, out of boredom, than age-writers who've gone absent, likely permanently, due to perceptions of "attacks" and "abuse" (as Whilyam keeps claiming). Therefore, the loss of the bored non-age-writers is a bigger issue.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:30 am 
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Regnad Kcin01 wrote:
Tweek wrote:

12 years of following the lore...not seeing it go out with a bang but with a whimper of the lame dog that got hit by a truck..is a saddening concept.

It is not difficult to see that a generative principal at the root of this statement has been the catalyst for everything that has led to this moment in time. The responsibility for it goes directly to the top decision maker(s) at Cyan, and It is important to note it.

The emergence of Myst was an event that was the metaphorical equivalent of catching lightning in a bottle. It was unique. It had enough energy to birth a number of subsequent, yet increasingly less creative offspring beginning with Riven.

Unfortunately, it appears that for whatever reason(s) the leadership within Cyan has developed an attachment to "The Idea of Myst", and this attachment has allowed the company to become the gaming world equivalent of the "one hit wonder" repeatedly recycling old ideas and old games for new technology. Some of this is no doubt reinforced by listening to a small, but vocal fan base that is just as blindly stuck in a similar feedback loop. This group wants to see each emergence as something new, yet refuses to perceive the reality that very little that is significantly creative has emerged from Cyan in over a decade.

When one couples that influence with the grand mistake of attempting to recycle the same foundations that propelled the single-player offspring of Myst to modest successes, and apply them to an environment that allows players to co-mingle, one sets the stage for exactly what we are seeing now.

It seems obvious to this observer that to some extent, listening to this small but vocal population has helped reinforce an inability at the very top levels of Cyan to say "NO" to their attachment to "The Idea of Myst".

A Rand Miller Interviewer wrote:
"I don't want to be part of the game that wouldn't die," Miller jokes. "But at the same time, we've grown to love this thing."

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Right now, I am very excited, and I'm sorry that I have to quote this whole comment, but I just had a hard time to
choose only a few words of this extraordinary statement, as it is perfect IMO only as a whole, precise and to the point... :D

Dearest Regnad, what not many ever dared to say or think or even to speak out publically lol, you did it so
frankly and straightforward, you really hit the nail right on the head IMO... I sooo wished Cyan (and our great
community or parts of them as well of course.../hugs) would understand this and act accordingly, so that their
awesome creative potential could finally explode and expand and whatever those wonderful geniusses would
do could again "go out with a bang" as Tweek so appropriately said etc... What did Yeesha and D'ni history
once said/proved? It goes something like this: "What doesn't want or refuses to change is doomed to die"... :P

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:42 am 
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janaba1 wrote:
"What doesn't want or refuses to change is doomed to die"... :P

These are wise words in general, but they make me wonder two things: do we, explorers still lingering in MOULa and these forums, really want to change? And how much is Cyan, who's tried to make a massively multiplayer online game out of Myst (the prototype of single-player, push-buttons-pull-levers gaming experience), and who's now working towards opening the source of its dearest creation, afraid of change?

Moreover, I'd say that good things in life should not necessarily change. Sticking to something good through tough times is not a sign of weakness. =)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:44 am 
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Everything is doomed to die. Whether it changes or not. (EDIT: though, thinking about it, the music of Bach, Beethoven and Tchaikowsky has not changed for over a hundred years, and it still seems to be doing rather well. Maybe only living things die.)

Regnad has been saying these things for a long long time. And yet Uru continues to survive, for reasons which, despite his well-displayed erudition and superior intellect, he has admitted he has yet to fathom. It's not about being blind, or stupid, or stuck in a loop, either on Cyan's part or the players'. He lumps all the Myst games together in his "increasingly less creative," ignoring the fact that Exile and Revelation were produced by separate organisations and that therefore their failure of creativity (which I do not see) is nothing to do with Cyan, and that EoA was produced under constraints which had nothing to do with creativity. And all his arguments are similarly flawed. "Significantly" creative? By whose standards?

Cyan provided a game. It attracted a small but intensely loyal fan base. It was, and is, not the kind of game that could attract a large fan base. Cyan has elected not to be blinded by the lure of numbers, not to throw away their hard work simply because it will never be the same kind of thing as WoW or EVE or SL. Some of the fan base has elected to continue to support this game. Regnad sees that as a bad thing, which is sad for Regnad, and for anyone who agrees with him. But the simple fact is that there is something, some human thing, generated between Cyan, their game, and the people who play it. It's not perfect. There are faults on both sides, failures to communicate, little quarrels that get blown up into big dramas and have to be carefully deflated again, times when we doubt its truth (and possibly times when Cyan doubts as well) and constant re-examination on both sides. But it's still there, and it's still real.

It's called love. And it's not a bad thing. (EDIT: and if you doubt me, look back at some of the posts in this forum and ask yourself what other kind of emotion could arouse such passion, such anger, such fierceness. I rest my case.)

As I've said before, many many times, if the truth were really as Regnad states it then the sensible thing to do would be for him to walk away and leave us to it, finally, for ever. And he does, with much flourish and "I don't care any more." But he always comes back, if only to restate his position yet again in the hope of convincing others to leave. And maybe that's love as well, of a kind.

Uru will not die, yet. It will, I believe, change, possibly in a good way, possibly in a bad way. Maybe then it will die. But for now it's still alive. Cyan's happy about that, and I'm happy about that, and other people are happy about that. I'm sorry Regnad isn't, and I'm sorry if you aren't. But that's the way it is.


Last edited by Zander_the_Heretic on Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:45 am 
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Zander_the_Heretic wrote:


Oh, and..."principle," I think.


Forgive me Zander. Don't you see the irony that both words function properly in that sentence, but that my choice is less superficial by illustrating a subtle pun that is given weight by everything that comes afterward?

A non-dual awareness allows for much more fun, and much less tension.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:04 am 
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Er, no. One word is the right one, and the other one isn't. Unless you mean that some American headmaster is involved in all this. Otherwise, you've used an adjective where you needed a noun.

Sometimes I wonder whether your entire stance is some sort of immensely subtle and rarefied joke, of the sort that Chesterton decried as indicating a secret, gloating snobbery (as he said, the purpose of a joke is to be understood, so the best jokes are always obvious). Whether it is or not, though, linguistic precision is of the utmost importance in conveying the exact meaning of the elevated concepts you bring to the discussion. Frankly, I'd have been more inclined to think that it was a simple slip of the fingers, rather than a misjudged attempt to convey some abstruse double meaning.

Inadvertent misuse of language is not a matter for forgiveness, though, but merely an occasion for improvement of one's skill.

And, having answered your question, back to the topic...


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:56 am 
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principal = adj. = main. I saw that as a typo too.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:39 am 
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Awww, my friends... I didn't think that anybody could feel embarrassed through Regnad's post,
at least I didn't understand it as a blame just as interesting view points that should be considered
IMO while talking about roadmaps, causes or better solutions/ways etc...

First of all, I love Uru, I love Cyan and our wonderful community...I loved (and still do) Myst, Riven,
Myst III and esp. Myst Revelation and EoA, the increased, continuously enhanced quality in all
aspects of those "games", the continuity and excitement that the storyline provides etc. etc....
I guess, you know what I'm hinting at...

I supported Uru from the beginning (my beginning lol) and will go on to do so, personally and by donating
etc... but besides that I do not refrain from trying to see everything as it is (my view, everybody could see
it differently, of course), to figure out what could have gone wrong, what could be changed etc... I believe
that LIFE changes constantly, IS infinite change and has changed already profoundly and will go on doing
so forever and everybody should adapt to that IMO, yeah, the good things, too... 8)

Also, yes, and that is no blame, my sweethearts, when I'd say, yes, I believe, that Cyan's restraint and
reservation sometimes etc. has something to do with fear and uncertainty, fear of change and whatever,
what would be more than comprehensible in these times besides the fact that there are still licence issues
lingering etc...
I'd also say that Uru isn't really alive, it "continues to survive", as Zander so correctly stated... WE, as the
community are alive and growing together and we lived on without Uru and made a home somewhere else
while exiled as once requested or advised by Yeesha... Uru is still waiting for its boost, for the bang or so...

Now, you could say Uru is the community, I'd say ok, you're right and I love you both... You see?... I just
want to say, when refusing to understand and seeing the facts etc.one cannot react or adapt appropriately
to whatever situation or issue... Haha, that's why I'm always in a cheerful disposition lol, living in the truth,
going with the flow... Adapt the old roadmap and this will all again thrive and grow... :D

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:24 pm 
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Thank you for the explanation.

I don't think there is anything here that anyone is refusing to see or to understand. Even the most enthusiastic of us accept that the future will bring change to Uru, and possibly change that it needs. (Also possibly change that it does not need.) Few of us will accept that Uru is not worth continuing with, because that is simply not the case. If we refuse to see or understand that, it is in the same spirit in which we refuse to see that there are purple goblins living in the dustbin.

The roadmap of a few years ago may not get us very far. I would theorise that Cyan have a new roadmap, one which they are possibly drawing out as they go, with a lot of blank space and "here be dragons". It's very probable that they don't know what the future will bring any more than we do--they know what they want, and they've told us that, but they can't know from one week to the next what will be possible a month down the line. At least they know that whatever happens, if and when they get to a point where they can do what they have planned with Uru, some of us will be there waiting for them.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:54 pm 
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Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
Er, no. One word is the right one, and the other one isn't. Unless you mean that some American headmaster is involved in all this....


Hoo is the CEO ov Cyan Worlds, Zander, and 2 hoom do you think I was refering with most of my komments?

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:53 pm 
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RK01: accept that you made a mistake and move on. This is just embarrassing and off topic.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:36 pm 
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I think Nick was doing a version of the old joke, "it's not that I don't like school; just the principal of it." :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Tiny bit off topic, I never try to out culturally reference Regnad - Nick, or engage in semantic play. I can't win. He's really good. That doesn't mean I can't disagree.

Back on topic, there are plenty of MMOs out there, generally in the MMORPG genre, that follow a standard pattern. They all not "revolutionary" in terms of what they do, but that have something that makes them interesting, different from the other MMOs, and they are doing well. With Guild Wars 2 and Rift: Planes of Telera, and Stars Wars The old Republic I think we are going to see some flavor of big changes in how the games work (may post on that later, I love comparisons) but the games will still follow the RPG format.

I think one could go with the idea of Myst, an evocative beautiful world with a good backstory, a contemporary world where you don't play as a fantasy character. Also, how Uru does instancing is unique to an MMO. Those persistent private ages, also how you can invite other people into your persistent private age -- that's different from other MMOs, in a good way. But -- if you don't follow standard RPG gameplay mode (mostly combat of some sort, and crafting) and don't have mechanisms for people to make stuff, and don't have something else for people to do, something that's rewarding, where you don't run out of stuff to do -- there's just not enough for people to do in the game, if all you have is solving puzzles. The live events have also been done in other games, though perhaps not to the same emphasis as Uru.

That's why I'm hoping for more fan created stuff. I don't think I'm saying anything new here.

Story is an interesting concept. In Uru, you could tell a personal story, but you could not change anything in the world -- it's like a play with a lovely backdrop. The story exists, but you can't see it in the world. If you want to do personal story, it would be nice to be able to change something, at least in your private ages.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:54 pm 
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Zander_the_Heretic wrote:
Everything is doomed to die. Whether it changes or not. (EDIT: though, thinking about it, the music of Bach, Beethoven and Tchaikowsky has not changed for over a hundred years, and it still seems to be doing rather well. Maybe only living things die.)


In that sense, one might say URU (well, and any MMO) is a living thing. If someone a hundred years from now plays Myst, it could still be pretty fun. If a hundred years from now someone plays Myst Online: URU Live, which is meant to be played with people, it would seem empty. Old MMOs often are like that.

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