Let's talk about ways to improve Uru as an MMO

kaelisebonrai · **Joined:** Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 902

ThedStranger wrote:

And as for "MMOs should be very user friendly", that's why I think Uru should be half MMO and not a complete one. But that's for another time

Actually, I'd say games in general. Games in general should not make the user have to solve a puzzle to get the main interface.

Myst was an amazing game. Guess what? You didn't need to solve a single puzzle to get the main interface of the game. Fancy that.

dragossh · **Joined:** Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:39 pm **Posts:** 517

MercAngel wrote:

Ahnonay and Er'cana take the multiplayer puzzles out i think this was a bad thing to do they are not public ages.

Uru was originally an MMO, and you can see that in the way the puzzles were developed. Yes, there was DIRT before that, but it was a different beast altogether. Removing the multiplayer aspect of the puzzles makes Uru a single-player game with a nifty chatroom. At least right now, most Ages are multiplayer (or required the whole community to solve 'em).

kaelisebonrai wrote:

Again, the UI should /never/ have been a puzzle in the first place, so the KI should remain a puzzle argument is... highly annoying, and also highly stupid, in my opinion. It goes against every consideration of Game Design I've ever heard. = P However, let me state this clearly: In an MMO, one should NEVER have to solve a puzzle to get the main User Interface for the game. EVER. Regardless of the nature of the game being a "Myst game". (and only tangentially at that, I have to note.)

I don't consider the KI the main Uru user interface. It is, however, a very convenient communication device.
Anyways, if a player is too lazy to read the darn instructions and follow the path to the KI... good grief. There is nothing puzzle-ish in following some basic instructions. Even the forechamber puzzle in Myst was more challenging than getting the KI.

We need to change Uru, but we need to be careful. It should not get to the point where it's Just Another MMO.

kaelisebonrai · **Joined:** Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 902

dragossh wrote:

I don't consider the KI the main Uru user interface. It is, however, a very convenient communication device.
Anyways, if a player is too lazy to read the darn instructions and follow the path to the KI... good grief. There is nothing puzzle-ish in following some basic instructions. Even the forechamber puzzle in Myst was more challenging than getting the KI.

We need to change Uru, but we need to be careful. It should not get to the point where it's Just Another MMO.

You're honestly not trying to tell me that the KI is not the primary interface for Uru, are you? Uru is an MMO... Communication between players (the whole massively MULTIPLAYER online game thing makes that necessary) is key, and the only decent-ish way to do that in Uru is... the KI.

Also considering once you've done the main content (doesn't take very long, etc), all you have to do is chat, and do marker missions. Both of which you'll pretty much need your KI, not to mention you /need/ your KI for gahreesen, and also for doing anything in Jalak... or doing the Great Zero stuff... or making a hood, or using the nexus... or... You get the point.

Whilyam · **Joined:** Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am **Posts:** 4134

dragossh wrote:

MercAngel wrote:

Ahnonay and Er'cana take the multiplayer puzzles out i think this was a bad thing to do they are not public ages.

Uru was originally an MMO, and you can see that in the way the puzzles were developed. Yes, there was DIRT before that, but it was a different beast altogether. Removing the multiplayer aspect of the puzzles makes Uru a single-player game with a nifty chatroom. At least right now, most Ages are multiplayer (or required the whole community to solve 'em).

No one likes multi-player puzzles. They just annoy people. It's a nice idea, but the better idea is to have puzzles that can be both. For example, the gear puzzle in Gahreesen or the bucket puzzle in Teledahn. If you can't get the timing right, you can get another person to help.

Quote:

kaelisebonrai wrote:

Again, the UI should /never/ have been a puzzle in the first place, so the KI should remain a puzzle argument is... highly annoying, and also highly stupid, in my opinion. It goes against every consideration of Game Design I've ever heard. = P However, let me state this clearly: In an MMO, one should NEVER have to solve a puzzle to get the main User Interface for the game. EVER. Regardless of the nature of the game being a "Myst game". (and only tangentially at that, I have to note.)

I don't consider the KI the main Uru user interface. It is, however, a very convenient communication device.
Anyways, if a player is too lazy to read the darn instructions and follow the path to the KI... good grief. There is nothing puzzle-ish in following some basic instructions. Even the forechamber puzzle in Myst was more challenging than getting the KI.

The KI is Uru's main user interface. It is where the majority of all user activity takes place. Other interfaces are used, but they are used in one Age one or two times.
Players are not "too lazy" to follow instructions. The instructions are confusing and unnecessary. I think your comments are insulting and denigrating to new players and are an example of the arrogance which we should work to avoid.

Quote:

We need to change Uru, but we need to be careful. It should not get to the point where it's Just Another MMO.

We need to change Uru as much or as little as we like and see what works without people like you and others spreading paranoia. Uru will never be just another MMO.

Simone · **Joined:** Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:43 am **Posts:** 282

Whilyam wrote:

No one likes multi-player puzzles.

That's not correct. I belong to the minority of people who like multi-player puzzles.

Quote:

Players are not "too lazy" to follow instructions. The instructions are confusing and unnecessary. I think your comments are insulting and denigrating to new players and are an example of the arrogance which we should work to avoid.

You're saying that "go to the classroom -> retrieve the KI from this place -> here is the instructions booklet" is confusing? That sounds insulting and denigrating to new players! ;-)

Whilyam · **Joined:** Tue May 09, 2006 1:04 am **Posts:** 4134

Simone wrote:

Whilyam wrote:

No one likes multi-player puzzles.

That's not correct. I belong to the minority of people who like multi-player puzzles.

Right. No one (who should be taken seriously) likes multi-player puzzles.

Quote:

Players are not "too lazy" to follow instructions. The instructions are confusing and unnecessary. I think your comments are insulting and denigrating to new players and are an example of the arrogance which we should work to avoid.

You're saying that "go to the classroom -> retrieve the KI from this place -> here is the instructions booklet" is confusing? That sounds insulting and denigrating to new players! ;-)

If you read any of the posts by new players, you would know that you may end up in the wrong place even though you think you're following the directions.

mszv · **Joined:** Wed May 10, 2006 5:28 am **Posts:** 2266

If people say that the instructions for getting the KI are confusing, then they are confusing for some people. That's how it goes. What's also, possibly even more confusing is that, unlike the other MMO games out there, getting your communication interface is a puzzle. I can't remember if I found it confusing -- I read how to do it when I was in beta and I so I go get my KI, every time, pretty much by rote.

I put this beautiful but confusing game beginning down to the thinking in 2002 or earlier, when Uru was first designed. Uru came out in 2003. Even in prologue, when it was still multiplayer, and in the beta -- is it is a solo player game with some optional multiplayer components, a multiplayer game, what? Starting where there are no people and then you have to solve puzzles -- that says solo player to me. That's fine, but that translates to a game where once you are done solving the puzzles, you are done, no more game.

Zipping forward to 2010, I think solving puzzles when you first get in, it implies there is a lot of content, a lot of puzzles to solve. There are a decent number for a solo player game, but if all you think you can do in Uru is solve puzzles -- better to just buy the solo player game. I think you have to get to the people quickly, or what's the point -- you could just buy the solo player box.

andylegate · **Posted:** Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:24 pm

Whilyam wrote:

Simone wrote:

Whilyam wrote:

No one likes multi-player puzzles.

That's not correct. I belong to the minority of people who like multi-player puzzles.

Right. No one (who should be taken seriously) likes multi-player puzzles.

~snip~

Whilyam wrote:

Players are not "too lazy" to follow instructions. The instructions are confusing and unnecessary. I think your comments are insulting and denigrating to new players and are an example of the arrogance which we should work to avoid.

Emphasis mine.

Soooo stating that people that like multi-player puzzles should not be taken seriously, is NOT an arrogant statement?

I'm confused.

However, I do like some solo aspects as multi-player aspects in a game.

Finding yourself wandering in the desert where the Cleft is, by yourself makes sense, as does figuring out how to get down into the Cavern (unless you arrived on a tourist bus, outbound from Cactus Flats, on it's way to Needles.......).

Having somethings later be solo puzzles and some things multi-player puzzles only makes sense too: you can't do everything by yourself in real life (or you could, but then you'll be severely limiting yourself to what you can do/experience).
Many times you'll need someone's help in RL to get something done. Why not in a MMO too? Especially a MMO that promotes itself on realism.

Sometimes doing something down in the Caven actually with another person gives me more of a sense of being there than being solo all the time. Like Er'cana:

My wife and I had a lot of fun playing MOUL for the first time and being there when it came out. Me standing in one of the mixers and telling her to go ahead and close the gate and flood it while she was in the control room. Just to see what it was like.

So I think that BOTH aspects, Solo and Multi-Player for solving puzzle are important, and should be taken seriously. Both can attract people from both sides. Maybe provide a way for both so that no one is stuck having to do it one way or another. But not so obvious either (Ahnonay comes to mind).

Egon · **Joined:** Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:21 am **Posts:** 48

Just my two cents:

Whilyam wrote:

Simone wrote:

Whilyam wrote:

No one likes multi-player puzzles.

That's not correct. I belong to the minority of people who like multi-player puzzles.

Right. No one (who should be taken seriously) likes multi-player puzzles.

I disagree. Mutliplayer puzzle with good design can be quite a fun.

Perfect examples are Eder Delin, and Eder Tsogal (join marathon now!

).
Yes they required You to gather lots of people (yes I saw video of two guys solving it, but they where pros

), but it's a great stimuli to make some social event. And the best part: everyone who is participating is getting reward. A feature which is not present in most of multiplayer puzzles in URU. And I think this is what makes people dislike solving multiplayer puzzle.
If You solve puzzle with a friend, both players should be given reward.

ThedStranger · **Posted:** Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:32 pm

Quote:

Actually, I'd say games in general. Games in general should not make the user have to solve a puzzle to get the main interface.

I'm talking about the game it self (singleplayer cleft and so on). I agree with you on the KI (or rather communication gadgets thingies on my case), it should be esier to use.

Quote:

Myst was an amazing game. Guess what? You didn't need to solve a single puzzle to get the main interface of the game. Fancy that.

Myst dropped you in the middle of nowhere, and told you to figure things out. While this can't really work with Uru, I think we can keep some of it.

Quote:

No one likes multi-player puzzles. They just annoy people. It's a nice idea, but the better idea is to have puzzles that can be both. For example, the gear puzzle in Gahreesen or the bucket puzzle in Teledahn. If you can't get the timing right, you can get another person to help.

Agreed. Completely.

Quote:

Right. No one (who should be taken seriously) likes multi-player puzzles.

Whilyam? did you say this? since when do you talk like *this*? simone has different opinions, but it's not a reason to say that.

Simone · **Joined:** Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:43 am **Posts:** 282

The current way of getting the KI is not a puzzle (*): there are three big signs directing the player to the KI dispenser, two in the 'hood and one in Gahreesen itself. However it's undeniable that people still don't get it that they should head for the KI dispenser. IMHO, those signs would work better if we made them somewhat bigger/shinier and changed the font that's used on them: the "scribbly" low-key style we have now is nice, but it's very inconspicuous and it does not look at all like something you should pay attention to. Maybe we could put a sign in the Nexus too, so that if someone without a KI links there will know why the machine is not working.

If those signs (with arrows, maps etc.) don't work, I do not think that a piece of paper with instructions on a Relto shelf will do the trick.

And honestly it doesn't makes sense to have the KI already on your wrist when you first create an avatar, if we want to have a gameplay that is at the same time easy and sensible.

About multiplayer puzzles, I agree with Egon:

Egon wrote:

If You solve puzzle with a friend, both players should be given reward.

The Eder doors, or a Teledahn bucket even without timer, are puzzles that give a real sense of cooperation without feeling contrived. On the other hand, the Ahnonay/Er'cana thing which must be repeated in each person's cave, well that's certainly not an "optimal" implementation.

But the point here is: we must not forget that the purpose of multiplayer puzzles is to push explorers to stick together, form groups, find friends. This means that an explorer starts to solve a puzzle, and by the time s/he's done s/he's made friends, has experienced the history of the Ages and the richness of the environment much more, and has now more reasons to get back to the Cavern the next day.

(*) EDIT: using the KI is another matter! ;-)

Tai'lahr · **Posted:** Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:14 am

Simone wrote:

But the point here is: we must not forget that the purpose of multiplayer puzzles is to push explorers to stick together, form groups, find friends. This means that an explorer starts to solve a puzzle, and by the time s/he's done s/he's made friends, has experienced the history of the Ages and the richness of the environment much more, and has now more reasons to get back to the Cavern the next day.

Agreed. I played Uru:CC over and over again, and the only reason I signed up for Uru online was to get more content. I had no intention of participating in the community until the Eders Delin & Tsogal acted as a fast track to discovering what kind of great people inhabited the cavern. And, yes, I made friends and found that exploring with others was a richer experience than exploring alone. And, yes, it made me log in more frequently.

kaelisebonrai · **Joined:** Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 902

Simone wrote:

But the point here is: we must not forget that the purpose of multiplayer puzzles is to push explorers to stick together, form groups, find friends. This means that an explorer starts to solve a puzzle, and by the time s/he's done s/he's made friends, has experienced the history of the Ages and the richness of the environment much more, and has now more reasons to get back to the Cavern the next day.

Except, no one I've ever helped with the multiplayer puzzles has ever spoken to me again - somehow I doubt your hypothesis.

EDIT: with the /possible/ exception of people I knew before, or people i did the two eders with.

Simone · **Joined:** Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:43 am **Posts:** 282

kaelisebonrai wrote:

Except, no one I've ever helped with the multiplayer puzzles has ever spoken to me again - somehow I doubt your hypothesis.

EDIT: with the /possible/ exception of people I knew before, or people i did the two eders with.

See? Then the Eders helped! ;-)
Anyway, we have yours and we have Tai'lahr's experiences. In my case, it went sometimes one way, sometimes the other. It's not surprising, just like in life. But again, having multiplayer puzzles is (at the very least) yet another way to meet people and play together - which is the whole point of an MMO. It is also a way to have puzzles that do not fall into the usual "pull the lever, push the button" Myst stereotype. But I don't want to diverge too much from the main topic...

Zander_the_Heretic · **Joined:** Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:37 am **Posts:** 278

At least one could say that the multiplayer puzzles were the equivalent of leading the well-known horse to water.

I don't make friends easily as a rule, so I tended to help out on the Eders and then go on my way without pursuing further contact other than with people I already knew. Come to think of it, I still have that to do in MOULa.

Let's talk about ways to improve Uru as an MMO

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