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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:24 am 
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I'm noting this is missing the only bit of story we've had in MO:ULagain - the meeting of (some) the DRC members in the city, in early February 2010, just before the rest of us got access - the info is available on the drc site.

Also, I do hope RAWA checked over this before it got stickied... after all, this will be accepted as "official" by most people, even if RAWA hasn't accepted it. And if there's anything that's incorrect, this could muddy canon further than it already has been.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:58 am 
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As far as I know, RAWA has not had a look at these. However, I am completely willing to edit them if he does find time to see them and finds an error.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:31 pm 
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As noted in the OP, this is a history of the Second Restoration; the re-opening of the cavern this past year would be a new chapter, IMO.

And, as for canon, this is canon: Carl Palmer began a tradition of explorers telling the history of the cavern as they remembered it from their perspective.

I do hope RAWA gets a chance to review them someday - as they're being prepared for inclusion as journals in the cavern.

Well done, Malfhok.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
And, as for canon, this is canon: Carl Palmer began a tradition of explorers telling the history of the cavern as they remembered it from their perspective.

This is the important point, which is why they should always be referenced as "A History of the Second Restoration as told by Carl Palmer and others." If we are going to think about elevating these to an "official" history, then there needs to be lots of scrutiny and debate, for Carl and others certainly have strong opinions about events and draw lots of conclusions that could be questioned (vigorously) by other historians. As a set of stories that constitute an oral history, however, they are wonderful.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:13 pm 
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Dim--go ahead and link away /shrug.

Zardoz and Kaelis are, of course, completely correct. This is an oral history told by eyewitnesses who did the research to fill in the gaps, but whose presentations are undoubtedly colored by their (our) own bias. If any of the actual facts were incorrect, it would indeed "muddy canon" as Kaelis suggests. However I am fairly confident that our facts are all correct. I believe it is safe to consider this an accurate representation of events as they occurred, given that history is always unintentionally skewed a little by the bias of the historians. For instance, the historian must choose which events to include in his history and which to leave out. Not every single conversation with official characters was included in our summary--we had to use our judgement to pick things that seemed the most important. Even so, it still ends up being a whopping long read.

Think of this as being a "history book" of GT MO:UL. As with all history books, you'd probably get a more accurate and comprehensive knowledge of events if you skipped the book and went straight to the primary sources--but the book provides a more convenient and less time-consuming method of learning the basic story.

As for RAWA's approving a request to add this to the game itself--as I've said before, I think that this will not happen until the game is fully open-sourced and fans do it. I doubt reading this (long) summary is at the top of RAWA's priority list, and the largely unprofitable progress of MOULa is definitely not at the top of Cyan's priority list. So, I think a 'hood classroom book containing the Heritage Documents is something that will have to wait until complete open-source.

EDIT: Upon further reflection on the concerns presented by Zardoz and Kaelis, I think that if a book ever IS included in-game, it should have a page at the beginning explaining that these are the events as certain explorers remember them, and that the book itself is written by explorers, not the DRC.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:03 pm 
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Carl Palmner wrote:
So, I think a 'hood classroom book containing the Heritage Documents is something that will have to wait until complete open-source.

EDIT: Upon further reflection on the concerns presented by Zardoz and Kaelis, I think that if a book ever IS included in-game, it should have a page at the beginning explaining that these are the events as certain explorers remember them, and that the book itself is written by explorers, not the DRC.

When I buy a biography or a history book, I understand that it was written in the context of research done by an author who is at the mercy of his resources. The author's name is on the spine, copyright page, title page, and so on. And the author does not generally claim to actually be the person he is writing about (unless it's an autobiography) and it is often the case that he did not personally live through the particular topic of history. So it seems a reasonable assumption that people of common sense will understand that the works can be imperfect representations of fact which can be amended in later editions if necessary.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:51 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
When I buy a biography or a history book, I understand that it was written in the context of research done by an author who is at the mercy of his resources. The author's name is on the spine, copyright page, title page, and so on. And the author does not generally claim to actually be the person he is writing about (unless it's an autobiography) and it is often the case that he did not personally live through the particular topic of history. So it seems a reasonable assumption that people of common sense will understand that the works can be imperfect representations of fact which can be amended in later editions if necessary.

True, but if I buy something that advertises itself as a "scholarly" biography or history, I would also expect footnotes and a complete list of sources, as well as the avoidance of commentary such as
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Cate's reasons for leaving? "I'm not getting a return on my investment," or something like that.

Ironic, actually,

Cate had mentioned the week before that she would believe a Bahro war when she saw it. And now here she was leaving, no Bahro war in sight.

Now, Carl has been very careful not to advertise the Heritage Nights as "scholarly," as that would have ensured a complete absence of attendance ( ;) ). And thinking about them as "non-scholarly" in no way demeans them or minimizes their importance, for they are the first attempt to create a narrative history of that period (I'm not counting the summaries that appear in places such as MystLore). For that, Carl and his co-contributors should be congratulated and even honored with some sort of presence in an in-game journal.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:37 pm 
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Why, thank you :)

Personally I like the commentary stuff--Heritage Night was always intended to feel and be very human, while at the same time accurate in its facts. I rather liked DimensionTravelerCalum's comment about Cate--I thought it added a certain flavor to the storytelling. I tried to infuse my own summary of "Scars" with my personal feelings regarding Wheely's death, and my own opinion is that these things make for a more interesting read without distorting the facts (at least, not significantly).

As for author accountability (i.e. JWPlatt's mention about the author's name on the spine, title page, etc.), I completely agree, and I'm just vain enough that the thought of my name on something in-game is immensely satisfying ;). However, I also think Calum and Malfhok should get credit for their work--they both did enough to be considered co-authors, I think. Calum wrote about one-third of the raw material (the other two thirds was me), and Malfhok edited the entire thing. I think a simple title page at the beginning with a message after the title reading something like "This work was written by Carl Palmner, DimensionTravelerCalum, and Malfhok. It represents a narrative of the Second Restoration as experienced by two of the eyewitnesses to those events, and while the authors have worked hard to maintain 100% accuracy in their account, it should be noted that this is not the work of the DRC, Cyan, or any other official organization."

Something like that would be perfect, I think--gives credit where credit is due, holds the right people accountable and makes it clear that this isn't Cyan's official account and so may contain some flaws. Another addition which I think would be a great idea would be a "Credits & Thanks" list at the end, basically identical to the one I've already posted here. That way those who contributed in other ways--such as ushering, relaying and advertising the events--can have some recognition.

However, before anyone gets excited about this--I want to stress again that I don't think we'll be seeing an actual hood book until the project is fully open-sourced. Remember that Uru really is not Cyan's top priority--and rightly so, since the reality is that it is not very profitable for them. So right now this is a nice idea, but probably won't be implemented until the fans have the right to take and add stuff to Bevin. When that happens, you can bet I'll be lobbying for this :)

EDIT: For anyone interested, Heritage Night is continuing, although I, personally, am not taking as active a role. I believe the next event is tonight at 18:00 KI-time in "Heritage Night's Bevin". I think the subject matter is "Scars" but I don't know who's hosting--probably DimensionTravelerCalum, who's sort of loosely "in charge" now. I'm going to try to attend and I'm sure all our welcome.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:46 pm 
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Not to be nit-picky or anything, but if I'm ever credited in connection with this project, I'd prefer to be credited as an editor, not author. I really didn't write anything out of those chat logs. I just reworded things and made complete sentences. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:06 am 
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JWPlatt wrote:
When I buy a biography or a history book, I understand that it was written in the context of research done by an author who is at the mercy of his resources. The author's name is on the spine, copyright page, title page, and so on. And the author does not generally claim to actually be the person he is writing about (unless it's an autobiography) and it is often the case that he did not personally live through the particular topic of history. So it seems a reasonable assumption that people of common sense will understand that the works can be imperfect representations of fact which can be amended in later editions if necessary.

A reasonable assumption on the surface, or even on the forums, but if this is to be included in the game the implication will be that it was written by the DRC. A brief outline of its origins will make it clear to new players or others who are unaware.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:12 am 
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Malfhok: I disagree--it takes a lot of work to edit a chatlog into something easily readable. Just because you didn't come up with the original content does not make you any less of an author. The Brothers Grimm collected folk stories and put them in written format--but they are still considered the authors of their works, even though they did not invent any of the stories. Someone is going to say that this is not the exact same situation--and I agree, it is not, but I think that the principle is fairly close to the same. You still had to use your own judgement when editing it and it is YOU who did the work of converting our spoken words into an easily readable written format. I think you deserve co-author credit.

At any rate this particular point is moot until full open-source, as it is unlikely Cyan will take the time and manpower to program a hood book for us.

Bog: I agree. If the book is ever placed in-game, something should be in it indicating that it is the work of fans (albeit fans who actively participated in the relevant events) and not Cyan or the DRC.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:01 pm 
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Alright, Carl. I'll give on authorship. :)

My suggestion about getting these summaries into the game actually required (I *think*) very little work on Cyan's part. My thought with that was that we have Cyan's plugin. What's to stop some fans from creating some books with the plugin and then asking Cyan what it would take to put them in the game? But you are correct… It is somewhat of a moot point until open source is achieved.

I was presenting this as an alternative to adding a fan Age first, as Cyan has repeatedly said they think is the next step. It sounded a bit easier to me, though I really don't know much about how that end of Uru works.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:30 pm 
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Keep in mind that something similar to this situation has already happened once when the Guild of Greeters provided the text for the KI/Nexus Guide found in the classroom. :D

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Well, thanks to Mac_Fife, this thread is still alive! It has been moved from the closed History and Myths area up to the Spoilers section so that new explorers will hopefully find it and learn about the past.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:53 pm 
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Well, DimensionalTravelerCalum has begun telling the story of Prologue during Heritage Nights, so I've agreed to once again edit the chat logs into story form that could be used inside a book in-game later. Prologue Part 1 will be in the next post.

I'd love to update the index in the first post, but it seems that because a moderator edited it, I can't do that. Though if a nice moderator wants to add a link to the index, I wouldn't complain.

And don't forget to attend the live Heritage Nights if you can! http://heritagenight.wordpress.com/

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