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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 4:48 am 
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Congratuations, you've just invented WinSxS.

But yes, this is getting technical. It's something to come back to when we've got things sane enough to start thinking about new features.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:41 pm 
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New features are good, but what is possible at this point? As far as I can tell - and please correct me if I am wrong - one can:
  • Create a fully MOULa compatible server with MOSS.
  • Create a fully MOULa compatible client with CWE provided that one buys a few very expensive SDK licenses (not likely but possible in theory).

So then you would have a client and a server that can talk to each other. However, you have no content because there is (as yet?) no content license. The only way to get any content at that point is to pull it from the MOULa file server.

Secondly, how would one "mix" this MOULa content with fan ages? Does CWE currently support multiple file servers over which data can be spread? If not I'm sure this could be implemented.
And obviously some of Cyan's content will have to be modified in order to make linking to fan ages possible. Will we get a license for this? Or are there plans from Cyan and/or the OpenUru.org team to provide a way?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:36 pm 
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D'Lanor wrote:
  • Create a fully MOULa compatible client with CWE provided that one buys a few very expensive SDK licenses (not likely but possible in theory).
...
And obviously some of Cyan's content will have to be modified in order to make linking to fan ages possible. Will we get a license for this? Or are there plans from Cyan and/or the OpenUru.org team to provide a way?

There were, as I recall, three commercial libraries used by Cyan:
  • The Bink SDK: Very expensive. Only used (currently) for the intro videos, so simply bypassed in the buildable version created by a'moaca' and cjkelly1.
  • The Intel JPEG Library: Not terribly expensive, but no longer available anyway. Replaced by jpeglib.
  • Creative Labs EAX: Replaced by OpenAL.

The PhysX SDK is free to download, but you need to register with nVIDIA first.
So the client is buildable without having to buy any SDKs, assuming you already meet the basic necessity of possessing a copy of MS Visual Studio :wink:

But your question of how fan ages find their way into an open source shard, in an integrated way, is a very valid one.

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Last edited by Mac_Fife on Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Mac_Fife wrote:
So the client is buildable without having to buy any SDKs, assuming you already meet the basic necessity of possessing a copy of MS Visual Studio :wink:

Does it have to be a full version of Visual Studio? Would the "Express" version work, for even more shoestring-developer-friendliness?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:45 am 
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If you happen to be a student, Microsoft DreamSpark should be able to supply you with MS Visual Studio. Just one of the advantages of going back to school. 8)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:33 am 
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Express editions do not work. Apparently Uru uses MFC for some bits of its dialogs. In addition, Visual Studio 2010 also does not work, since it includes an incompatible dsound.h. You'll need to use the full version of Visual Studio 2008 or earlier.

Getting it to build with Visual Studio 2008 Express would be most excellent, and is something my team has on its TODO list. Stay tuned.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:38 pm 
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Montgomery wrote:
Where is Cyan with regard to the FCAL for MOULa? I know some work was done over a year ago in preparation for this, and some details hammered out.

As I recall from my time working on this at the beginning, there was some discussion about creating a panel which would consist of equal parts Maintainers, Writers and Archivers. I think the idea was Writers would check coding and the technical side of the files, Maintainers would check playablility and aesthetics, and Archivers would check integration into the storyline and general consistancy with the D'ni universe.

Am I on the right track? I'd like to start this process up again, and would appreciate any insight into the current state of affairs and Cyan's ultimate requirements for inclusion of FCA into the main shard of MOULa. And, or course, how the GoMa fits in.

The original references there were in relation to the MORE proposal and getting fan ages etc., into MOUL and not specifically related to open source. You have to look at what open source means for the code as being one thing and what it means for content as another and I think it is content that your question is more concerned with.

Rand's Open Letter shows that Cyan still has an aspiration to get fan content onto MOULa, and that will obviously require some form of vetting or review. Clearly, Cyan is still in a tight position on time and manpower, so it seems likely that fan assistance will still be required, and again, Rand's letter references the Guilds a number of times. There is no specific guidance yet on how that might be accomplished, but the general outline of that MORE model still looks relevant.

The wild card that open source throws in is that it is now possible for anyone, with the appropriate skills and the inclination, to take the source and create modification and derivatives of the game engine, and some of those modifications should also find their way back into Cyan's MOULa server. That's the whole point of open source, but it does imply that shards could appear that employ features or enhancements that mean that an age created for Shard A may not work on Shard B. So, further down the road, code revisions that are or are not adopted into MOULa might affect whether a fan age is compatible with Cyan's MOULa or not.

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Last edited by Mac_Fife on Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Mac_Fife wrote:
... Rand's Open Letter shows that Cyan still has an aspiration to get fan content onto MOULa, and that will obviously require some form of vetting or review. Clearly, Cyan is still in a tight position on time and manpower, so it seems likely that fan assistance will still be required, and again, Rand's letter references the Guilds a number of times. There is no specific guidance yet on how that might be accomplished, but the general outline of that MORE model still looks relevant ...

Thank you, Mac! Your reply is most helpful, and I am posting it in the GoMa forum for discussion.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:31 pm 
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Shorter Mac: FCALs have nothing to do with code. Beyond that, open source means no one needs to get an FCAL to get their Age in Uru.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:48 pm 
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Whilyam wrote:
Shorter Mac: FCALs have nothing to do with code. Beyond that, open source means no one needs to get an FCAL to get their Age in Uru.

Mostly true. Unless you want your fan-created Age to be added to or accessible from the official Cyan MOULa server (which - like it or not - will have the most explorers) you will need an FCAL. To add your Age to MOULa, Cyan will have to give their permission. And it looks like they will be using the FCAL and the FCAL panel to narrow down those they will have time to consider.

I think it is absolutely terrific (and essential) to allow people to create content for their own fan-run shards with no regulations. I hope and expect to see some inspiring mirrors of the Uru universe that contain some amazing new and unique Ages. But I imagine a lot of the explorer community will not be interested in new content until it appears in MOULa and has Cyan's stamp of approval. You and I both know how the explorer community reacted to fan-based storylines when it was clear they were not "official," as compared to their reaction when the storyline was official or was thought to be official.

"Official" status holds a great deal of power in Uru, and actual content will certainly be no exception. And, yes, the FCAL will include coding. Before Cyan will allow content on their server, they have to be darn sure no textures or sounds or models were lifted from other copyrighted material. The FCAL panel will be (we think) Cyan's volunteer team for checking this. Also, official content will have to conform to RAWA's guidelines for Story/Age creation.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:21 pm 
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May be the FCAL part of this discussion should be split off to a new thread.

I’ve been told that FCAL has a NDA so that the license cannot be published. Is there anyone with a license that can say? Can anyone publish a copy of a FCAL? Is there a copy posted somewhere? (I have a vague memory of there being one, but I can't find it.)

My understanding is that the FCAL is about using Cyan assets in the development of a fan age or web site. If one uses all original artwork and avoids copyrighted names, there would be no need for a FCAL.

For Cyan to use fan created ages on their server they would need permission form the creator of the age. That permission grant could be in the FCAL that Cyan uses. But I’ve never heard that. Can anyone with a FCAL provide an answer?

I agree with Montgomery that Cyan will want a statement of ownership for all materials provided to Cyan as part of a fan created age. They will essentially pass liability for IP theft to the age creator. I suppose that might be part of the FCAL, but again, I’ve never heard anyone disclose that.

A FCAL for coding… if Montgomery means the python we see in the data folders, then those are Cyan assets. But, fans creating their own original code are in the same place as artists creating their own art. They don’t need a FCAL. If one writes their own code for opening doors, moving levers, baking pellet like things, they are free to do as they please.

If Montgomery means the MOSS code… as I understand it that is GPL or another open source license and is unrelated to the FCAL.

CWE has been licensed under GNU GPL v3 license (I think that’s right). So use of or on CWE too does not require a FCAL. The plugin is the same.

Getting a FCAL from Cyan has been a slow and tedious process. So, if they are required, that will slow things down. If they are only needed to use Cyan assets and possibly to allow inclusion of an age on the Cyan server, things will go much faster if one skips the FCAL and foregoes use of Cyan assets. Fans can use such ages in fan based servers (MOSS) and need no additional licenses. If the age is popular and well made, the author may be approached by Cyan with a request to allow inclusion on their server. This is not a one way street where we only pour content into Cyan’s servers.

We already know GoW hopes to provide an improved game, which history suggests Cyan will be slow to accept, if they ever do. This means ages using new features will be incompatible. It will be a race between new enhanced versions of the game and the ‘official’ Cyan version of the game.

I see the race as being very much like the Grid races in Second Life and OpenSim. While OpenSim is more popular with creators, SL is more popular with visitors. Will it be that way in MOULa and MOSS? I suspect so. However, a big difference in the MOULa world is the game’s nearly insatiable demand for new content. If it is easy to put new content up on MOSS shards and hard to add it to MOULa, we may see a shift of players to the MOSS shards as more content appears there. Plus there is little doubt in my mind that new content is likely to appear first on MOSS shards. These are significant points for a content hungry player base.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:07 am 
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Nalates wrote:
I’ve been told that FCAL has a NDA so that the license cannot be published. Is there anyone with a license that can say?

If they required an NDA preventing publishing of the license... no one would be able to publish the license... :roll:

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Getting a FCAL from Cyan has been a slow and tedious process. So, if they are required, that will slow things down. If they are only needed to use Cyan assets and possibly to allow inclusion of an age on the Cyan server, things will go much faster if one skips the FCAL and foregoes use of Cyan assets. Fans can use such ages in fan based servers (MOSS) and need no additional licenses. If the age is popular and well made, the author may be approached by Cyan with a request to allow inclusion on their server. This is not a one way street where we only pour content into Cyan’s servers.

We already know GoW hopes to provide an improved game, which history suggests Cyan will be slow to accept, if they ever do. This means ages using new features will be incompatible. It will be a race between new enhanced versions of the game and the ‘official’ Cyan version of the game.

I see the race as being very much like the Grid races in Second Life and OpenSim. While OpenSim is more popular with creators, SL is more popular with visitors. Will it be that way in MOULa and MOSS? I suspect so. However, a big difference in the MOULa world is the game’s nearly insatiable demand for new content. If it is easy to put new content up on MOSS shards and hard to add it to MOULa, we may see a shift of players to the MOSS shards as more content appears there. Plus there is little doubt in my mind that new content is likely to appear first on MOSS shards. These are significant points for a content hungry player base.

Pretty much agreed. If the FCAL is required for ALL ages, I see that as a real problem since ages like my Toroolbah which use no Cyan assets would be delayed just as long as the Ages claiming Yeesha is Zandi's daughter. Moreover, Cyan content is *essential* to some Ages (those involving D'ni people) that do not fall within the purvue of "crazy stupid." For example, I can't remember the name exactly, but I think it was "Voloth Gallery" that used some basic Cyan content if I remember right (the cavern wall texture, the cavern rock texture, and the algae texture) and yet is one of the most beautiful areas I have seen come from the fans (Tweek's D'i house and my Tosholek are two similar examples).

Similarly I agree on the race for content. This is where I think Cyan would benefit from having am ore liberal outlook on what to include. My preference is, as always, to put power in the hands of the explorers and let them choose what content they want to experience. I hope that's the direction Cyan is going in, for Cyan's sake. I know I will be developing content for the people who want my content. If Cyan has sane requirements, I'll develop for them. If Cyan makes me wait months for a license, I'm probably going to release my content elsewhere first *or* not bother with Cyan at all.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:48 am 
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So, where is the license published?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:13 am 
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Fan Created Art License process FAQ - Jul 07, 2008

http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=263858

[edit1]
I am only pointing to the old FCAL FAQs. Nothing more.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:46 am 
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Nalates wrote:
A FCAL for coding… if Montgomery means the python we see in the data folders, then those are Cyan assets. But, fans creating their own original code are in the same place as artists creating their own art. They don’t need a FCAL. If one writes their own code for opening doors, moving levers, baking pellet like things, they are free to do as they please.


Actually no, Cyan released the python under the GPL as well. So the python stuff is just the same as any of the other code, right now =) So anyone can edit the python as they please, /without/ an FCAL.


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