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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:04 pm 
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I forgot to mention that the griefer was there again last night Monday 7/15/2014, so another ticket will be sent in again today with another screenshot of attacks on another female player. Will Cyan react today?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just received this email from Cyan 7/15/2014 Thank you Vicki and Cyan. I will get back to Vicki with the information she requested once I talk to Christine.

On 7/15/2014 12:21 PM, Victoria Almond wrote:
>
> Hello rocketdog,
>
>
>
> We have received no such contact from Christine reporting a griefer. If she did report this, I would like to know where it was reported (to make sure the right support request avenues are being used). This being said, the offending player, ************, has been banned. Thank you very much for taking the time to report this offensive behavior.

> Kind regards,
>
> Vicki
>
> --------------------------------
>
> Victoria Almond
>
> Cyan Worlds Support Team

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Last edited by rocketdog on Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:23 pm 
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rocketdog wrote:
ChloeRhodes

This is not my plan, I was afraid it would be taken wrong when I wrote it, here is what I said “I'm not saying this is the answer I'm saying this is an example or could be part of the answer.”

You yourself said “Its entirely possible that the plan allowed Cyan to continue funding Uru and distribute it to us, on a donation based system only.” But neither you or I know that to be the case, or do you? I in turn can say to you, it could be that cyan can charge anything they want. Besides that, I would have no problem with paying any royalty percentage that was do to Turner. You have done exactly what I am trying to get through to the community, you have debunked an idea without knowing the answer. Status quo. If I do nothing else here with this post I would hope that I can get other people and you to understand you will never get anywhere with that attitude. I would like to know how that attitude become such an ingrained part of URU live.


I have done no such thing. I have criticized the notion of a payment system against griefers because it is entirely possible such a solution is impossible for Cyan to implement without having to also distribute whatever money is garnered from it to GT as well. Thus decreasing the amount that would go to Cyan to fund such a system.

You take criticism of a possible to answer to griefing as acceptance that "nothing can be done" when such is not the case. That is the mistake you have made here.

Instead of proposing a payment system I'd suggest proposing something akin to placing someone on ignore, renders them invisible to you, and you invisible to them. Thus every griefer that is put on ignore by someone, the griefer won't be able to see anymore and you won't be able to see them. As more and more people follow suit, the griefer will find themselves more and more cut off from their victims as they won't be able to see or interact with them, and they will either leave, or just start a new account, and the process will begin again until they either stop griefing or leave entirely.

That is a solution that requires no effort from Cyan, and could be implemented by the fans on Cyan's shard. And thus it's a solution that Cyan would go for (as it requires no additional effort on their part aside from what they already do for updates) and can be maintained and made to work by our fan developers.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:42 pm 
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ChloeRhodes wrote:
...something akin to placing someone on ignore, renders them invisible to you, and you invisible to them. ...That is a solution that requires no effort from Cyan, and could be implemented by the fans on Cyan's shard... and can be maintained and made to work by our fan developers.

That is a good solution. Most important is that it is under fan control. My compliments to the person who thought of it and implements it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:48 pm 
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ChloeRhodes

I have started a list of Ideas that can be done to stop the griefers as JWPratt asked me to, Invisibility was the first thing on the list. If you look back through the forum you will see that I was, I think, the first person to come up with this idea years ago. It was like all the other suggestions that have been made by people on these forums cut apart and dismissed by most as impossible, and maybe it is. I am not a programmer. I know there were some people that did work on it and at one time there was a rumour that they were about to test it on live, but nothing became of it. So yes I also think if this can be done though it has its problems it would be the best solution to the problem. If you search the forum I think you will find the information showing the problems and the work that was put into it at that time.

I understand perfectly what you sad about making people pay and where the money goes. The question I have for you is wouldn't it have been a much better idea to try and find something good in the idea rather then taboo it? If we all look at the problem and only talk about how things wont work rather then how an idea could work where will that get us. Remember there is more then one way to skin a cat, lets look at them all and then decide if it would be better to start at the cats head or tail. As I keep saying status quo don't just accept that wont work unless you know the answer without a doubt.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:39 pm 
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I think this post is getting off subject and we are starting to get into, what is the solution. Which has been done many times before. The question now is has this changed the mindset of the people here on the forums, I'm not so sure, though the discussion has not been as negative as it usually is.

If we are going to have a discussion on what can be done or ideas on how to get griefers out of the game then I think we should start a new topic. But I for one will not get sucked into a status quo discussion about how nothing can be done. The last time I did that I left in disgust and I have no intention of getting involved in, or doing that again. If someone else wants to start a post requesting ideas please do. I would suggest that you start out letting people know you are not locking for naysayer's but are looking only for ideas.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:30 pm 
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JWPlatt wrote:
ChloeRhodes wrote:
...something akin to placing someone on ignore, renders them invisible to you, and you invisible to them. ...That is a solution that requires no effort from Cyan, and could be implemented by the fans on Cyan's shard... and can be maintained and made to work by our fan developers.

That is a good solution. Most important is that it is under fan control. My compliments to the person who thought of it and implements it.

I seem to recall that an "Enhanced Ignore", such as that described, was actively being worked on just after a previous discussion like this one. I'd need to look back, but I think it ran up against a technical difficulty (or maybe the developer in question just had other things that were higher priority at the time) and was sidelined. There's be no real mention of griefing again until recently, so nothing to push that job back up the priority stack.

Edit: The last traceable work on this I can find on the GoW forums was back in February 2012, when it looked to be almost ready for testing. There was a bit of a nudge in July 2012, but nothing more that I can easily find. As I recall, Cyan were fairly keen on what was being proposed, so it'd be cool to get that finished off. For reference, the thread discussing that on this forum is: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25268 (but as the last post in that thread was two and a half years ago I'd suggest starting a new thread if anyone wants to continue that discussion)

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Last edited by Mac_Fife on Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:55 pm 
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Mac_Fife

I think that was in another one of the posts I started back on Feb 16 2012 callesd "Cyan please help"

I'll check it out and let you know.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:58 pm 
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Actually, Gahlen, in November 2011 ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:27 pm 
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it was also mentioned in my post "Cyan please help" by Gahlen page 7. Can you tell us what the name of the post was.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:39 pm 
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Just follow the link I'd posted in my edit, above (but it was called "Ignore = inaudible … and invisible?").

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:47 am 
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Again, the easiest thing to do is everyone put that avatar on ignore. One click.
But, if you want to take the time out of your day or evening, then start a chat
log like Annabelle suggested and forward it immediately to Cyan.
I have always used the ignore feature and it has always worked for me.
Good luck. There will always be a griefer somewhere or sometime in the game.
You just have to keep your cool and use what is best for you.

-Nicoleleigh-

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:03 pm 
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@rocketdog: you seem to have some presupposition that attitude on the fan side is the problem and changing fans attitude will solve or improve things. I think Chloe Rhodes, JWPlatt, Mac_Fife, and numerous others have demonstrated will-do-attitudes for years and continue to do so. Advancements in MOULa come from the efforts of such people. So, to me there are enough people with what you might consider ‘proper’ attitudes to show that is not the obstacle to solving griefer problems.

@JWPlat: I’m not sure which part of my post missed the ‘common sense’. With a commercial profitable game time can be purchased so people are available to do things. In fan run games people donate time. Anyway we go, people with available time are a limited resource.
/JW

SL has free and premium memberships. Within the world there are sandboxes where people can build things. There are sandboxes where access is limited to premium members and others open to all. Griefing in premium sandboxes is almost completely eliminated but in ‘public’ sandboxes it is overwhelming. The cost of premium membership (about US$3/month) and having to associate an ID with an account is a huge deterrent to griefers. It works. Nothing else is really effective. So, the question is not: will it work?

With Uru and Cyan the barrier is what it will cost to police Uru verses what fans are willing to pay. There is also the issue of how many fans will drop out at which price levels. Historically there has never been enough fans willing to pay that they covered the costs of running the game. We only have enough fans to pay a bit more than it costs to run the servers. Cyan is at the limit of what they are willing to contribute to that operation. It seems fans are too. Changing our attitude has nothing to do with those facts.

The paragraph in Mac_Fife’s post well states the problem with trying to add fees to MOULa. Chloe’s point of how the licensing may require royalty payments could add to the cost and drive up fees. But, even if there is no payment to Turner I doubt that will get the cost down to a point fans will cover it.

As many of us see things the math of ‘fees to eliminate griefers’, as effective as it would probably be, doesn’t work out for Uru. Cyan management is apparently part of that group. To change perceptions and beliefs on that point will require some convincing based on evidence.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:02 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:35 pm 
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Nicoleleigh wrote:
Again, the easiest thing to do is everyone put that avatar on ignore. One click.
But, if you want to take the time out of your day or evening, then start a chat
log like Annabelle suggested and forward it immediately to Cyan.
I'd respectfully suggest that only putting a griefer on ignore and not logging/reporting it is maybe not a good policy. If absolutely everyone did that rigorously then it'd work, but the reality is that some won't do know how to do that (if they're a newish player) or won't know it's a griefer until they're already exposed. Reporting the griefer with evidence should ensure that they are removed from everyone's sight (at least on that account).

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:25 pm 
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Still the best thing to do is get those griefer reports into Cyan. Tor’i (aka Vicki) has no tolerance for that kind of behavior!

As I remember, there was some work started on a mutual ignore that included making avatars invisible. It was sorta modeled after the CyanChat mutual ignore - where not only do you no longer see them but the griefer sees everyone disappear and then gets bored and leaves on their own.
I’ll have to go back into my old emails, but as Mac said I think there was some technical problems when someone was developing it which might have had to do with the “mutual” part. Also, I think there was some concern that a modified client could use half of the mutual ignore as a cloaking device and spy on people.
But a one-sided ignore that included making the ignored avatar invisible to your client would be useful.


As far as the free/paid bit in the account database - that is still there in MOULa. Of course, everyone is automatically marked as “paid” ;-) but that could be changed. As I remember, the “free” bit is mostly checked at the client, like only getting one avatar, it might limit what Ages you can go to, limits on clothing, etc. But I suppose we could add server code to do something like not allowing them access to public Ages by linking them to a private instances - except MOUL has a problem of "where is everybody" for newbies. :oops:

As far as charging a fee to access MOULa - there are a number of logistic and legal problems that would inhibit that, so effectively that is not an option. But maybe something more like a ranking system could be used to determine “paid” status. Maybe based on how long ago the account was created, number of logins, inverse of the number of ignores you have received or whatever.

I’m just throwing out ideas here. Getting open source and the MOULa sources sync’d (which would help this issue) and getting fan Ages into MOULa is still at the top of the list.

Thanks,
Chogon


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