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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:40 pm 
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Name calling… Why… I suspect people adopt the learned the behavior as an acceptable and effective social debate/communication tactic from watching TV. A number of news anchors and most politicians make frequent use the tactic. As to why they do it, because it serves a purpose for the anchors and politicians and is effective.

To understand the purpose of name calling for anchors and politicians read Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals. He outlines the process needed to win debates via tactics when they can’t be won on the merit of ideas. Name calling is a primary tactic promoted in the Rules, which says something about that side of the political spectrum.

In a game environment the purpose is different and I think it likely the griefers have no idea where they learned the behavior. In all cases it is despicable behavior and shows a lack ideological merit and often self esteem. Fortunately in RL we can turn off the anchors and politicians. Being able to effectively turn off griefers in-game would be nice. Fixing the griefer is more than most of us want to take on in our recreational time.

The name calling tactic is not new. I think most of us early in life have seen it in use on the school play grounds. That adults continue to use it is a sad aspect of human nature. But, humans will do whatever works for them. Understanding what reward people get from it is for psychologists to figure out. Striving for attention is often and accurate assessment, but is still a generality and on the shallow side. Still, for in-game assigning of motive it mostly works.

We can try to mitigate the problem with technology. But, that is treating the symptom not the cause. So, with tech responses we will always have an escalating problem as griefers advance their skills and we find new mitigations. From use of a mute/block feature in SL that is very similar to what is proposed here, we can know it is a fairly effect technique.

As to the severity of the problem… It isn’t so much the number of griefers… ‘oh, only 1% of users are griefers – it doesn’t happen often’ …it is a matter of what is happening to the griefer’s target. We don’t look at how many people are murders nor does it matter how many griefers there are in-game. All that matters as far as where we spend our time preventing the problems is what works best.

For now reporting them and hopefully removing them from the game is helping. We have examples that it is not currently all that effective. I am not sure that making it difficult for the ejected to return by changing game play will not punish new users too, which I think would be self defeating as the point is to improve player retention by reducing griefing. Can it be changed and not punish new players? I hope. As game play is now, it is hard to get to place where new players find other players. So, I can’t see where more new player isolation or delay in making contact would help.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:03 pm 
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m.a.x.2.0

When the young lady was being bothered by this griefer that I just asked cyan to kick, the first thing I asked him was "why are you bothering her?" I received an answer in a four letter word with spaces in between each letter. The second thing I said to him was "We treat people with respect in here, if you treat people with respect you will get respect back." He replied with another sentence with a four letter word in it and told me to mind my own business. I then asked all the people to either quit the game or go to a private area and leave him by his miserable self. We all logged off except for Teodori and the girl who was being grieved. they went to another age because Teodori wanted to get more information from her about the griefer. Before they could talk the griefer showed up so Teo and the girl logged off.

As you see talking to the griefer and letting them know that their actions are not acceptable does not work. I have done much the same in the past and have never had a griefer accept that they were wrong in their actions. I wish it could be that simple.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:13 pm 
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We need a bouncer, somebody with a Bahro AV or a short stocky AV with a sharp black suit that would be available only to the bouncer's and they would have the ability to knock a griever or troll off line and keep knocking them off line.

Assuming Cyan would trust somebody with this kind of power

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:33 pm 
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When I first played "To D'ni" I just wanted to solve the puzzles and would have played the game even if it would have been a single player game. The ages were so beautiful and all I wanted to do is see what was around the next corner or in the next age. So for me a waiting period would have been no problem, but I understand the experience is different for each of us. So I guess the question is, is the game in itself enough to keep a newbie playing durring the waiting period?

I understand your concern and it is a legitimate concern. Can we pole newbies and get an answer to that question?

The good thing about the idea is the griefer would need to go through that waiting period over and over again if he comes back in with a new name, the newbie would only need to go through it once.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:46 pm 
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Karkadann wrote:
We need a bouncer, somebody with a Bahro AV or a short stocky AV with a sharp black suit that would be available only to the bouncer's and they would have the ability to knock a griever or troll off line and keep knocking them off line.

Assuming Cyan would trust somebody with this kind of power

I so love that idea and it seems to me to be in keeping with the game


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:06 pm 
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I witnessed the behavior of that individual too. He was going to bother people and curse at them no matter what you did or didn't do. It really concerns me about the new players having to deal with it. However, I am not sure what can be done if they keep changing their avi name. The veteran players will link away, but at least they will come back.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:17 pm 
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I've been busy trying to put together the list JWPratt asked for and with other things in real life as well so I came back to catch up on this post. It sounds to me like of the people posting here who think something needs to be done about the griefers preferre the enhanced ignore option. And I agree it is a good option. But remember it has not been proven that it will work yet so I think keeping an open mind and thinking about other things we could do is a good idea.

Some people think this problem is being exaggerated, I think the problem is being under reported. I know of many people who have and still are being bothered by griefers. There are young girls that I have made members of my Bevin so they have a safe place to go in game. I have adult women in my bevin who will not go into the city unless we go in first and let them know there are no griefers there. Most of the girls and ladies will not repeat what the griefers are saying to them. So they keep it to themselves and log off. Griefers don't seem to bother men very often.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:22 pm 
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Karkadann

How about "men in black" with the wraparound sunglasses and a large alien killer blaster gun. One shot from the gun and the griefer turns into a cloud of smoke.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:37 pm 
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We may already have something in place to remedy the issue, with everything the Grey Hats know about Uru Live Again server im sure it would not be to much of an issue for them to knock the grievers and trolls off line until they get the message. However are they wiling to help with the problem and again will Cyan trust any one with this kind of power

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:37 pm 
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I really think the best alternative is to keep reporting the individual, placing them on ignore until the "Enhanced Ignore" or some other feature is implemented. I know its tempting to ask others to boot the person off but please keep in mind that this is Cyan's server, it is their job to do the "booting" so to speak and if they choose to allow someone else(s) to do it in their place, that is their prerogative. I know that no one has suggested we do such a thing without Cyan's approval, but I think a friendly reminder that we shouldn't, out of respect for Cyan's authority over their own shard is in order.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:20 pm 
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Need we be reminded off what happen to the Liaison fiasco. Many won't like a regular player having that power anyways. Personally I would welcome it but I maybe in a minority.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:57 pm 
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Szark wrote:
ok so why can't mature adults DISCUSS things in a mature fashion then...seems very simple and straight forward to me though many do the opposite.


I think the situation is similar to what I've faced on the beach when doing sand sculpture. The vast majority of people respect the work or leave it alone. It only takes one, however, to put the arch on the ground, and the same is true of conversation; once the downhill spiral starts it's very hard to stop it. It's a curious phenomenon I've noticed in many places. I have tried mightily at times to arrest the downward trend, but it's usually like trying to stop a steamroller with a toothpick.

Witness public chat in any on-line game. This is why I keep public chat turned off in Guild Wars, and why I'm quick to use /ignore, even in the face of criticism from other players, in Uru.

The only thing I've known to work against negative influences is to have a group of people, such as at a party, who are so strongly committed to positive discourse that the problem children can't get a handhold. They soon leave, and everyone benefits.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:16 pm 
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Lord Chaos,

Yes I agree and that is what happens so often in this forum and in game. This particular post has been relatively free of that type of people. Which has worked out better then the majority of posts in the uru live forum's I've been in. But once you get a bunch of people who want to fight rather than finding a solution things can go down hill. Thank goodness by ignoring them they were not able to get the post off track. I guess sometimes ignoring griefers does work. haha!

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Last edited by rocketdog on Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:21 pm 
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Motivation makes the world go round, trolls are no exception. Figure out what is motivating the trolls and compromise it. After a while they realize their best efforts are in vain and they leave. A worst case scenario, the troll go's around trying to making you look like a troll and your the one being ignored.

Its a chance you have to take.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:32 pm 
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Karkadann wrote:
We need a bouncer, ...
Assuming Cyan would trust somebody with this kind of power
Before MOULa opened, and with knowledge of the limitations on Cyan's time I asked if there were any plans to appoint fan Res Engs or some equivalent and was told that just wouldn't happen - anyone with that kind of power would need to be a paid employee of Cyan.
rocketdog wrote:
I've been busy trying to put together the list JWPratt asked for ...
I'm sure JW has been called worse than a Pratt before, but don't go pushing your luck :P
rocketdog wrote:
Some people think this problem is being exaggerated, I think the problem is being under reported.
If it is being under-reported then you have to kind of take the view that the victims (or their friends) need to help themselves a bit and make sure the incidents do get reported. Griefers can't be banned if Cyan doesn't know about them.
ChloeRhodes wrote:
I really think the best alternative is to keep reporting the individual, placing them on ignore until the "Enhanced Ignore" or some other feature is implemented.
I agree -it's something you can do now.

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