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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:58 pm 
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As a side note, we do also have some knowledge of how arithmetic is written down, and possibly spoken, from the Lara Documents. If you haven't already, you might want to check them out.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:20 am 
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KathAveara wrote:
As a side note, we do also have some knowledge of how arithmetic is written down, and possibly spoken, from the Lara Documents. If you haven't already, you might want to check them out.


Link?

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:41 am 
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Aren't the Lara documents non-canon?

I don't remember those being a canon-source. >.>

EDIT: just did the research - They're Fanon - So Larry is /quite/ welcome to dispute them - and perhaps devise a better method.


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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:54 am 
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larryf58 wrote:
Separating rigahtorseerigahtor into two words seems to go against the known examples, in which the additional number after the place name is directly appended (such as fahseefah). Do you have a reason why it should be broken up that way?

In fact, not really. It’s a style I picked from The D’ni Student:
Domahreh wrote:
We can also write out numbers with digits in both places — one hundred twenty-one ([4][21]) is a tor in the twenty-fives place and a rigahfah in the units place: torsee rigahfah.

EDIT: direct link for the Lara Documents (page 9).

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:40 am 
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Personally, I'm unwilling to reject anything that isn't outright non-canon, since we have so little material anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:19 pm 
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The Lara Documents are very imaginative and creative, but I don't want to present ideas as factual that have not been vetted by Cyan. It's one thing to make a guess about how something we can observe in the game may function, but it's another to create mathematics terminology from scratch and present it with no provenance. Isn't that why you have the approval process in your forum?

Besides, I can't say I favor the proposal that instead of signs for plus, minus, multiplication and division, D'ni used actual words all that much, although it's plausible. It's a cumbersome and awkward way to go about it, which is one of the reasons we don't do it.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:17 am 
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Shorah everyone,

Yes, the Lara Documents were an explorer-run joint creative effort started by J.D. Barnes back in 2007 or so. The thread where it all began is on the DRC forums, which have been down all day (or longer), otherwise I'd provide a link.

I have never seen any indication that Cyan endorsed or refuted any of the content. Thus, I think we'll have to treat it as we would any other fan fiction. I believe a few fan-written items have made it into canon, but so far, it doesn't seem like any of the Lara Documents are among them.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:22 pm 
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Since I'm not sure any of you have visited the Guild of Linguists forum recently, I've posted two messages in the new submissions topic under the D'ni Language Restoration Project folder.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:37 am 
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Well, anything that gets through to the final stage then goes by Rawa, so material from the Lara Documents can now be vetted...

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:44 pm 
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They can be - but they are yet to be vetted - they are still at this time fan fiction. Fanon.


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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:33 pm 
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Very true, kaeebonrai. Although if someone does submit the ideas from the Lara Documents for approval... it won't be me.

Another member of the Guild of Linguists forum replied to my word submissions, and I replied to that to clarify a point... and got slapped down rather harshly for it. Apparently, you have to post certain things in certain places that are not all that well defined, and discussing a submission inside the submission topic is forbidden.

I'm beginning to regret bothering to create an account there. Whoever heard of a forum where people are not allowed to talk freely in the topics about the subject?

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:56 pm 
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The main issue with the Lara Documents is that, given the technology level of the D’ni civilization, it’s rather unlikely they didn’t have a formalized way of writing equations and the like.
A pet theory of mine is that, when used for actual computations, digits were written without the boxes, i.e. mostly resembling the letters.
Also, considering the origins of our own operators (e.g. ‘+’ is a simplification of et), I guess D’ni operators would be very simplified mandalas (e.g. a ‘+’ derived from gah might look like a mix of ‘T’ and a ‘Z’). Of course, we’re missing most of the relevant words :)

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:45 pm 
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I'll certainly agree that their math symbology is likely to be related to their writing... but how? The big factor is that there just aren't many terms available in the current dictionary that really apply to mathematics. While I'll grant that "gah" could be used in the sense that we use "two and two equals four", that's not very precise. The only math function I know a D'ni word for is "equals" (pehkai).

I thought about a simple math problem, 15+3=18. In written D'ni, that would be "heebor gah sehn pehkai heegahsehn"... and it sounded kind of silly, since the answer is the same as the problem, minus the -bor suffix.

Of the basic four operations, here are some of the words and symbols that are used.

+ Addition, Add, Sum, Plus, Increase, Total
(no D'ni words for any of them)

Subtraction, Subtract, Minus, Less, Difference, Decrease, Take Away, Deduct
(no D'ni words for any of them)

× Multiplication, Multiply, Product, By, Times
(no D'ni word for multiply. There is a verb for "produce", nehtso, so shouldn't -tahv make that into either "production" or "product" [nehtsotahv]? The D'ni word for "by" is teh or t', but that is normally used to mean "next to, with, in", so it's probably a mistake to assume that the D'ni would have used it as a mathematical function like we do. There is a D'ni word for "times", gortee, but gor refers to the fourth dimensional definition of time, or "the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole" as one dictionary put it)

÷ Division, Divide, Quotient, Goes Into, How Many Times
(again, no D'ni words for any of them)

Edit: Would it make sense if the first letter of a word for something served as the math symbol? In others words, "g" for plus, and "p" for equals? (Maybe not. The characters are still clunky.)

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Last edited by larryf58 on Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:54 am 
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We don't really have a way of knowing what metaphors the D'ni used for their mathematical terms (and given the antiquity of Ronay civilization, the original metaphor might have not have left any trace by the time of the D'ni language), so we're left to speculate pretty freely. It's possible that ken was used to express equality.

(Note that whatever pekay means, it's an adjective or a noun, not a verb.)

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 Post subject: Re: D'ni mathematics
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:28 am 
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Talashar wrote:
(Note that whatever pekay means, it's an adjective or a noun, not a verb.)


According to the D'ni dictionary, pehkai is defined as:

pehkai peKA [equal (?), as much (?)]
kokehneet pehkai b’rish beh motee (were almost [equal (?)] to those) GJ.

And that's about as close to an actual math term as the source material gets, IMHO.

Kehn, on the other hand, gets this entry, which basically defines it as "be, am, are, is".

kehn-, ken- Ken, be. DLG.
(am, are, is. ko-kehn- was, were. leh-kehn- have been, has been.)
shorah, ken Aytrusokh D’nee (hello, I am Atrus of D’ni) Rawa.

I can see where you're coming from with it -- you're using it as if one were saying "two plus two is four". I just think pehkai is a more precise word.

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