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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:09 pm 
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:( Come on guys… where’s your support for a team that are fervently putting UL thru its paces to try and get us online for Christmas. What’s the point in releasing a half-baked game for Win2K users? Some of the beta guys may be using Win2K and finding a host of bugs. It looks like Windows XP is probably the best platform – and if that’s the way to go – so be it (I will have to change one of my systems!).

We want the game to work don’t we? With no more support for Win2K – I think you will see more than Cyan giving the OS a body swerve.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:18 pm 
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Tokai wrote:
:( Come on guys… where’s your support

It comes after the initial stages of grief. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:19 am 
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Once again, you've made me giggle at something that affects me not at all (I use XP for gaming, and Linux for my normal life)

I hope that little bit of humor from JWPlatt will make you Win2K users feel a little bit better. Besides, Once Vista gets close to its launch date, stores will probably be selling XP on the cheap, to get rid of the excess stock. So don't give up yet!

Also, the message mentioned the next beta release. Why wasn't there an update? Has Cyan stopped putting the server update in a publicly-viewable area? Or is everything working now, so we don't need to see them? :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:35 am 
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This is very interesting news, thanks for sharing it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:12 pm 
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Someone over on UO thought to check the Web site for the new physics engine that Cyan is using (PhysX?). The engine does not support W2K, so Cyan is kind of stuck with that. The good news is that the physics engine does list Vista RC-1 as being supported.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:27 pm 
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Once again Cyan has shot themselves in the foot.
By not supporting Win2K they have chosen a path that limits access to the game, and thus limits its profitability.

Forcing users to change their OS is not a trivial matter. Aside from the cost involved, it is beyond many user's technical ability. And what is the incentive? To play a game that we all have played before - no new content whatsoever - and to pay for ithe privilege into the bargain.

If the physics engine chosen does not operate in the Win2K environment, this fact must have been noted early on in the development process, and yet production moved forward anyway.

I am not personally affect by this issue, but many potential customers are, and I am simply flabbergasted by the bone-headedness involved here.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:36 pm 
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hogarth, your anger is mis-directed. PhysX 2.5.0 and 2.5.1 didn't support W2K but would run, PhysX 2.6.0 won't even install for W2K. Blame Ageia.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:37 pm 
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hogarth wrote:
By not supporting Win2K they have chosen a path that limits access to the game, and thus limits its profitability.


Every development team has to make such decisions at some point. You always, ALWAYS have to compromise. Either use the newest, latest and greatest APIs and lock some users out, or make things awfully more complicated to develop and support and thus let a few percents of more users in. Cyan chose the former. There is no "correct" or "wrong" choice in this matter.

hogarth wrote:
Aside from the cost involved, it is beyond many user's technical ability.


Once again: Windows 2000 was never released in a consumer version. Therefore, the chances of someone using it on their home computer for whom it would be "beyond their technical ability" to upgrade are extremely slim, because Windows 2000 Professional was neither marketed towards end users, nor was it reasonably-priced towards them. At that time, Windows 98 Second Edition and Windows ME were the consumer systems, both of which were much cheaper, and much more useful for a consumer, not least of which in terms of software and hardware support for consumer-type devices and programs.

The chances of someone like that still using it in 2006 are even slimmer. Let alone the chances of someone like that also playing MMO games on their computer.

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To play a game that we all have played before - no new content whatsoever - and to pay for ithe privilege into the bargain.


I think the screenshots released a few weeks ago are proof enough that there is, indeed, new content. Perhaps not at first; perhaps not for a while. But the whole point of an MMO subscription is that you stick around and experience the thing grow.

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If the physics engine chosen does not operate in the Win2K environment, this fact must have been noted early on in the development process, and yet production moved forward anyway.


Except older versions of the same physics engine were, indeed, supported on Windows 2000. It's a recent change on Ageia's part. Whether it was justified is another matter. Whether Cyan should have stuck with the older Ageia PhysX is yet another.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:16 pm 
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chucker wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Aside from the cost involved, it is beyond many user's technical ability.


Once again: Windows 2000 was never released in a consumer version. Therefore, the chances of someone using it on their home computer for whom it would be "beyond their technical ability" to upgrade are extremely slim, because Windows 2000 Professional was neither marketed towards end users, nor was it reasonably-priced towards them. At that time, Windows 98 Second Edition and Windows ME were the consumer systems, both of which were much cheaper, and much more useful for a consumer, not least of which in terms of software and hardware support for consumer-type devices and programs.

The chances of someone like that still using it in 2006 are even slimmer. Let alone the chances of someone like that also playing MMO games on their computer.

You're probably correct that the percent of users running Win2K is not large, but it is still clear Cyan made a calculated choice in cutting them loose. Given the push to make Uru Live succeed, however, I still maintain it is foolish to limit the potential customer base.

I have a number of machines, two of which are running Win2K. As it happens I also have two machines running WinXP, but if I did not, I can assure you I would not consider it worthwhile to install a new OS simply to play a game I have played many times before, either in expense or time involved. And yes, I have also played MMO games on those machines. I played the original Uru Live on those machines, in fact.
I may only be one user, but I am certainly not the only one who played on a Win2K box.

As for "new content", I see none whatsoever. Rejiggering existing content by mirror-flipping maps, adding different textures and changing the lighting is not adding new content.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:33 pm 
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hogarth wrote:
You're probably correct that the percent of users running Win2K is not large, but it is still clear Cyan made a calculated choice in cutting them loose.


Yes, they did.

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Given the push to make Uru Live succeed, however, I still maintain it is foolish to limit the potential customer base.


But you have to limit your potential customer base. You could easily argue Cyan should also support Windows 98, or perhaps even 95, or that they should support Mac OS X, Linux, some BSD variant, Solaris or AmigaOS. Or that they should port to various game consoles.

You absolutely have to cut losses at some point.

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As for "new content", I see none whatsoever.


Then you aren't looking hard enough.

http://www.uruobsession.com/?module=Gal ... albumid=68
http://www.uruobsession.com/?module=Gal ... albumid=78

Neither of those ages are, have been available in any of the numerous previous iterations and variants of Uru. This is, without possible argument, new content.

Now, fine enough, both those ages borrow some concepts from Eder Kemo, but I'm sure more apparent changes will happen somewhere down the road. There's ages we know have been on the pipeline for the long time, such as Kahlo or Negilahn.

Based on how successful Uru Live turns out to be, Cyan will probably be happy to expand their resources (including employees) once again, which should lead to more rapid, aggressive development of yet more content.

But in any case, that's highly off-topic.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:50 am 
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I'm currently using XP PRO X64.........heh

You would be suprised to find how well things run on it.

I had to do a special patch to provide a 64X framework and presto....

All kinds of things supposedly 'Not supported' work beautifully.

See you in the cavern...MIZ

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:41 pm 
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As for "new content", I see none whatsoever. Rejiggering existing content by mirror-flipping maps, adding different textures and changing the lighting is not adding new content.

Agreed, but with the realization that Cyan today is not by any means the same Cyan who blew us away with Riven all those years ago. The company is at the moment something of a skeleton crew, working on a tight budget. As I understand it, Uru is still something of a grand experiment on the part of both Cyan and GameTap. If it succeeds, then I get the impression Cyan will receive the go-ahead to staff up and get back into world-building on a much larger scale. As it is now, a very small team is working themselves ragged trying to bring Uru Live to a point where it can be formally launched. In a Cavern Today interview Rand Miller told me that they're not making any money on this -- yet -- and that the future of Uru, and of Cyan, depends entirely on how well it goes over when it's officially released by GameTap.

As for OS support, or lack of same, this reminds me of the game "Starship Titanic" that released a number of years ago. It was a brainchild of Douglas Adams, author of the Hitchhikers's Guide series, and it brought his bizarre imagination to the world of adventure gaming. I was one of many who paid frequent visits to his company website (The Digital Village) during development, to check up on game progress, check release dates, etc. Now it so happens that Adams was a fervent Apple supporter, and was quite well-known as a Mac evangelist. And yet The Digital Village was compelled to release Starship Titanic for Windows first. The outcry from the Mac sector was deafening, and finally Adams posted an apology and an explanation on his site. He pointed out the unfortunate fact that in spite of his strong preference for the Mac, reality dictated that if they wanted their game to support two platforms, it simply wouldn't work to do a Mac version first. Even then, Windows was predominant enough that launching the game for Windows first would result in a much larger initial return on investment, and they could then sink those funds into development of the Mac version.

In the same way, Rand and several other Cyanists are Mac addicts. Their initial games; The Manhole, Cosmic Osmo, Spelunx, and even Myst; were built using the HyperCard application, which was unique to the Mac. Only later was Myst ported to the PC, and only then because its massive popularity justified the move. When you're a small company -- like Cyan -- making a niche product -- like Uru Live, for now anyway -- you just can't do all the things you'd like to do. You can only go for the sure bets to guarantee a return on your investment, and only after that income is secured can you even consider reaching out to fringe users.

So I see this as the reason that Cyan has been very conservative in their choice of OS support. For now anyway, that's the only approach they can take. And unfortunately, with GameTap being Windows-only I see the situation continuing.

Mowog


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:21 pm 
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Like Havok and Mac physics support of old, XP support also appears to be another external factor not under Cyan's control because of Aegeia's dropping PhysX support for anything prior to XP.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:25 pm 
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Great. I was playing on Windows 2000, but I accepted it wouldn't be supported and bought a new machine running XP pro. Now I see indications on the forums that the game won't install on XP pro. Does that apply only to Game Tap? Because I can't get that anyway, being in Australia.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:26 pm 
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XP Pro is not enough information. 32 bit or 64 bit?


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