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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:16 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:37 am
Posts: 383
Say that an avvie called "Adi~~" (similar to my main avvie's name) is walking around in the public City. They say nothing, just walking around or standing someplace. That can't possibly be considered as "bad" or harmful. Some people ask me if it's me, I say no. The avvie links in and out for a few days, and that's all.

How and why would that be called "griefing"? And why does that avvie get to be banned, just because *maybe* a "bad person" is behind it, when there is absolutely no record of this avvie or the person behind that avvie *actually* causing any harm?


I'm very sorry that you'll get to find this post provocative. But I find very disturbing the fact we've had this specific ban and I can't just watch and stay silent.
As if we haven't learned anything from past issues of personal hatred that caused unfair bans, are we now starting an actual witch hunt?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:14 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:24 pm
Posts: 263
Location: Germantown, Tennessee
I totally agree Adi. I have never ever seen this get so blown out of proportion.
This has just gotten out of control.
How far is this going to go? This has started because of a certain situation and
it seems never to end.
The majority of us are full grown adults. Some of us need to suck it up and act like
adults.
This is only going to cause more headaches and strife in the city. If someone doesn't
like you, they can report you. Or your name is nearly the same.
When will this ever end? Never, I am so afraid. URU is a game. Please get along
and act like adults.
Thanks Adi. You say things when others may not want to say.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 10:02 pm
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Location: Tigard, OR
Please, is there an actual explanation somewhere of what is alleged to have happened, or is everyone going to talk in hypotheticals?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:16 am 
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I would happily provide one, but I'm afraid that I'll be asked to edit my post so that it doesn't refer to any actual events or people.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:42 am 
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 10:02 pm
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Fair enough.

Based on what was described, sticking with the example, I would also need to also know:

* If put in the reverse situation, did Adi-- also deny being your alt?

* Was there any past history of Adi--'s player harassing you? While you may not have a trademark on the name Adi (there is nothing wrong with *a* person taking the name Adi--), any past relationship between you and the player behind Adi-- might be a factor (there may be something wrong with a *specific* person taking the name Adi--).

* Did a moderator speak to Adi-- about potential name confusion whereupon Adi-- responded in an uncooperative or abusive way?

* Was the original Adi avatar famously banned, such that anyone - you or otherwise - would be expected not to create a similar or derivative name or be seen as stirring up bad memories?

If the answer to any of these scenarios is yes, then Adi-- wasn't being a nice person and got banned for a reason.

If the answer is no, there might still be extenuating circumstances I don't know about, but on the face of it I would think being banned JUST for taking the name Adi-- to be an unusual and unexpected response.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:37 am 
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How many people actually read the EULA they agree to each time they log in?
Here it is in all it's full unedited glory ....
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Myst Online:Uru Live
END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT
Revision # 02.10.2010


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Now adi has asked why this ban has happened. I am going to pick out a few parts of the EULA that might be relevant to what happened.

"* Any content or use that is patently offensive to the online community, such
as sexually explicit content or content that promotes racism, bigotry, hatred
or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual;"

* Any content or use that harasses or advocates harassment of another person;"

"* Any content that promotes information that is false, misleading or promotes
illegal activities or conduct that is abusive, threatening, obscene, defamatory
or libelous;

* Any content that infringes upon or violates any third party's rights, including
but not limited to, intellectual property rights, rights of privacy, including
unauthorized disclosure of a person's name, e-mail address, physical address or
phone number, and/or rights of publicity;"

"* Any content or use that interferes with another user's use and enjoyment
of the Service or any other individual's use and enjoyment of the Service;"

Further down in the EULA it talks about naming policy ...

"Naming Policy. When selecting a character, guild, city, pet, or object name for
use on Myst Online: Uru Live, you must abide by the following Naming Policy set
forth below (and in the event CWI changes it, you will abide by all changes after
it is posted at http://www.mystonline.com/naming_policy You must use your best
judgment to avoid gray areas.

i. Names may not be offensive, sexually explicit, vulgar, racist, hateful,
obscene, defamatory, or any other language that is offensive in nature (including
common swear words, names concerned with anatomical references, and intentional
misspellings, anagrams, combinations, and homonyms of these words)."

Note the word "defamatory", that refers to defamation of character, in other words someone impersonating you and making you look bad. The person who was impersonated, was made to look bad. The fake avatar didn't just walk around and say nothing.

Lastly I'd say this, someone seriously impersonating another with the intention of making that person look bad is not acceptable behaviour regardless of whether it's in MOULa, or elsewhere. I'm not saying what has happened in MOULa to deal with this is the right action to have taken, it's not up to me to decide that, but that action was taken by Cyan is what is important.

Just my opinion.
Alien

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:41 am 
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Reporting has been made easier, but the requirements are still the same: you need substantial proof that an avatar is griefing. In the OP case, if the avatar is minding its business without typing, there is no ground for reporting.
Even if it interacts with other explorers, you still need to prove it’s impersonating someone else and/or being offensive; may I remind you there already are perfectly legitimate avatars with quite similar names.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:18 am 
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Oh I agree. I have had a player copy me. He named an avatar similar to mine (but written differently) and dressed his avatar like mine, but at no point did I consider him to be impersonating me.

What has happened recently is different to that, a player was deliberately impersonated with the intent to defamate that person's character. That is why it was not acceptable.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:09 am 
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Do you have any proof of that, Alien? I'd be glad to see it and apologize in public for the misunderstanding.

Any proof that "Kaaja Laroo" avvie did actually cause any sort of harm to anyone? Because I asked around and nobody said they did anything, they just were angry that the specific name was in use. Is it trademarked then?
I never met the avvie so I didn't know if they had. I only visited their Hood, twice. The imager was empty at first, and then it had some photos on. Where is any harm in that, or any sort of impersonation?
As opposed to "adi the RAT" for example, whose Hood had a very informative message. Impersonation, check, harassment, check.


To reply to Marten, afaik:
Hm I think it's a no, they didn't talk at all.
Yes there's supposed to be something.
I don't know, but is there any "talking" here, we always proceed straight to the ban.
Yes, but seriously, is this a reason for a ban?

Sure, it falls under the "zero tolerance" policy. But it's still forced, it's all based on a suspicion, and this is what made me post this.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:02 am 
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What the person did with the avatar is irrelevant, IMO. Kaajalaroo is an original name that she clearly created herself, so she should own the rights to it. Using "Adi~~" in your hypothetical example was a poor example since Adi is a common name. If you google Adi, it shows up in Baby Names and Wikipedia, but if you google Kaajalaroo, you only see links to items relating to the Kaaja we know. Just creating an avatar with the name is a form of theft, preventing Kaaja from making an avatar using that form of her own name.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:10 pm 
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Tai'lahr wrote:
What the person did with the avatar is irrelevant, IMO. Kaajalaroo is an original name that she clearly created herself, so she should own the rights to it. Using "Adi~~" in your hypothetical example was a poor example since Adi is a common name. If you google Adi, it shows up in Baby Names and Wikipedia, but if you google Kaajalaroo, you only see links to items relating to the Kaaja we know. Just creating an avatar with the name is a form of theft, preventing Kaaja from making an avatar using that form of her own name.


Just in general.. this is a community that we presume is a group of friends... posting here, logging on and playing-- these things are priviledges, not rights.

IN the OP's example.. NOBODY can be here every moment, watching the city to insure this 'adi--' is behaving himself at all times. I'd say, among a group of friends who mostly know each other by handles only, that yes it IS a rather dishonest thing to do, to create a name that is very similar to someone else's. And as for whether that person is just standing around doing 'nothing'...well, how do you even know that? Can you see what PM's or Ki-mails that person has been sending around, in the last few hours; have you seen every comment the person made in the city in the last few days?

In a case like that, a person 'cloning' someone else's handle or avatar as their first action as a 'new' player... it's better to be safe than sorry.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:39 pm 
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Yea it was probably a bad idea to open this topic.
But it's sad that we're all adults and it's just an online community, and we can't just get to relax a bit.

Such an irony that this community is always advertised as "warm" and "welcoming" by the same people that always see banning as the solution to everything.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:31 pm 
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HarveyMidnight wrote:
IN the OP's example.. NOBODY can be here every moment, watching the city to insure this 'adi--' is behaving himself at all times. I'd say, among a group of friends who mostly know each other by handles only, that yes it IS a rather dishonest thing to do, to create a name that is very similar to someone else's. And as for whether that person is just standing around doing 'nothing'...well, how do you even know that? Can you see what PM's or Ki-mails that person has been sending around, in the last few hours; have you seen every comment the person made in the city in the last few days?

If there are inappropriate comments via PM then there should be a chatlog or at least a screenie as proof. Otherwise anyone could report everyone for what might go on private channel. :?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:23 pm 
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adi wrote:
Yea it was probably a bad idea to open this topic.
But it's sad that we're all adults and it's just an online community, and we can't just get to relax a bit.

Such an irony that this community is always advertised as "warm" and "welcoming" by the same people that always see banning as the solution to everything.



We are starting to get a bit paranoid around here.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:07 pm 
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adi wrote:
Say that an avvie called "Adi~~" (similar to my main avvie's name) is walking around in the public City. They say nothing, just walking around or standing someplace. That can't possibly be considered as "bad" or harmful. Some people ask me if it's me, I say no. The avvie links in and out for a few days, and that's all.

How and why would that be called "griefing"? And why does that avvie get to be banned, just because *maybe* a "bad person" is behind it, when there is absolutely no record of this avvie or the person behind that avvie *actually* causing any harm?


I'm very sorry that you'll get to find this post provocative. But I find very disturbing the fact we've had this specific ban and I can't just watch and stay silent.
As if we haven't learned anything from past issues of personal hatred that caused unfair bans, are we now starting an actual witch hunt?


I have been working with Cyan for some time and have run into this situation in the past. Once you are banned from the game it is not the avatar that is banned from the game but the person that is banned, which is the correct way to handle griefers. Wouldn't the griefers just love it if all they had to do is change their name and come back in and start their griefing all over again. If you don't want to be banned from the game don't be a griefer.

Cyan has ways of knowing if the new name is just another name for that griefer. Cyan has a policy of not quoting names in this forum so I will just say there have been griefers that have come back into game with other names and email addresses, Cyan (or should I say Vicki) keeps an eye on new players names and then checks to see if they are past griefers. In fact I reported an avatar to Vicki about a week ago who I thought was a past griefer Vicki checked and replied to me that there was no record of that avatar being a griefer and she asked me if he had done anything wrong. I wrote back to her that he did nothing wrong but that I thought I remembered the name as someone who had been banned in the past.

Cyan is not just kicking people for no reason at all, it doesn't work that way. In fact it is not easy to get a person banned, you need proof that isn't always so easy to get.

Thank you Cyan and Vicki for the great job you are doing with these griefers its the best defense we have against them for now.

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