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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:30 am 
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Mac owners who play MOULa via 3rd party apps like PlayOnMac and Wine will lose the ability to play MOULa if they upgrade to Catalina when it releases in Autumn.
This will be due to the TOTAL loss of 32bit game/application support and Catalina's inability to run ANY 32bit application.
I had hoped that creating a simple 64bit virtual drive on PlayOnMac would be the answer but it appears this will NOT work as the game itself is still 32bit and will not run, even on a 64bit virtual drive.

I'm wondering if anyone knows of any projects/teams anywhere that are working on a way for Mac users to still be able to play MOULa after the upgrade?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:19 pm 
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This is on the todo list, but seems it wasn't very high priority until now since it didn't prevent playing the game.

On the other hand it also seems some guys are looking into the matter, so there should be some kind of solution eventually (although it will take some time).


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:24 am 
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Called it :P Though I didn’t realise the situation was a tad worse.

  • As mentioned before, Cider is almost certainly doomed, unless Rainbow can somehow tweak it for MacPorts.
  • I don’t have much hope for Wineskin either, as doh123 has been in the wind for over a year.
  • Porting Kit shares the same basic issues with Wineskin, being based on it, but as noted by Sirius the devs are actively looking for a solution. The structural issues described by PaulTheTall make any update for Cider and Wineskin much less likely.
  • PlayOnMac, and Wine itself, are also under active development, so their respective teams are likely being looking for a solution too – and hopefully also talking with each other.

Besides, Apple’s (and maybe-but-maybe-not Canonical’s) zeal to cut off more and more backward compatibility is going to affect much more popular Windows-only games and 32-bit applications, so I don’t see any reason to panic yet.

The usual advice applies: wait for the 10.x.1 version if you plan to upgrade :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:51 am 
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Looks like Apple is screwing its users over again. It's not surprising--they continue building more and more walls around their garden. I wouldn't anticipate it getting any easier to run applications from other platforms on their so-called OS. After all, they are deprecating support for the open OpenGL platform and refuse to allow the next generation graphics platform Vulkan into their walled garden. Instead, they are pushing their own proprietary solution, the so-called "Metal." With Apple's appalling lack of concern for its customers in these moves, it is clear to me that the only solution to this problem is to migrate away from their platform.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:42 pm 
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Apple has never been game-centric. Granted, you can play games on a mac if supported (or using a third party program like mentioned by the OP), but Mac's were never marketed as gaming machines. Steam and other stores that mainly offer 32 bit games are pretty much out of luck...

Valve already spoke out recently regarding the next version of Ubuntu dropping 32 bit from their OS (though the libraries will still be there, but not really maintained apart from security patches) by saying they would no longer support that particular distro when the new version drops, and will be looking at other versions of Linux instead. Does that mean they'll drop support for Mac as well? If anyone bought their Myst games on that platform that would pretty much be the end of it... not that it would matter considering you wouldn't be able to play them anyway. :v

This is actually kinda funny when I think about it... all these years I've always seen game companies pay the most attention to Microsoft with Apple in second place. Now I'm starting to see Linux get more attention, and even a company as big as Steam working to make it possible to bring even more games to Linux users via their own version of Wine, known as Proton... which didn't last very long on Mac due to Apple dropping support for OpenGL and Vulkan not being Metal enough for their tastes.

I never thought I would be alive in a time where I could say, "at least you can leave Ubuntu for another distro". Where is there to go on Mac? :v

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:35 pm 
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Yeah. It seems Apple doesn't even try to win over MS, Google and FSF's gaming customers, instead they simply cut all ties with them (even if it costs them a part of the gaming community). This is quite extreme, but then that's not really surprising from them. As for Canonical/Ubuntu, I guess dropping 32 bit support makes sense since the whole OS is built around the idea of open-sourceness which (theoretically) allows anyone to maintain and upgrade apps.

As bad as stock Windows 10 is, there is one thing you can say about the OS: it's very unlikely to drop support for 32 bit applications anytime soon, given the amount of Windows-only 32bit proprietary softwares running on it, dating back to the Windows XP days. (For better or for worse, since backward compatibility is a cause for instability.)

Tomala wrote:
Now I'm starting to see Linux get more attention, and even a company as big as Steam working to make it possible to bring even more games to Linux users via their own version of Wine, known as Proton... which didn't last very long on Mac due to Apple dropping support for OpenGL and Vulkan not being Metal enough for their tastes.

This is kinda sad. Now that the gaming industry finally starts turning their attention away from Windows, both MacOS and Ubuntu decide to make things harder to them.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:17 am 
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Ah, but Ubuntu is but one option. Valve has already expressed interest in working with other distros to make sure they can play both 32 and 64 bit games. While Canonical might not want to update their 32 bit libraries anymore that doesn't mean all other distros will follow suit. It certainly looks brighter compared to Mac at the moment.

Now I'll need to find time to see how well Uru handles under Proton...

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:32 pm 
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Tomala wrote:
Apple has never been game-centric.

It used to be. One title at random that was first released for the Mac? Myst.

Tomala wrote:
Valve already spoke out recently regarding the next version of Ubuntu dropping 32 bit from their OS

See the link I posted, Canonical is not dropping 32 bit support.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:48 pm 
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korovev wrote:
Tomala wrote:
Apple has never been game-centric.

It used to be. One title at random that was first released for the Mac? Myst.


Yes, that's a Mac game. One Mac game. Sorry, even Wikipedia had this to say about Mac:

Quote:
In the 1990s, Apple computers did not attract the same level of video game development as Windows computers due to the high popularity of Windows and, for 3D gaming, Microsoft's DirectX technology.


Just because games were released on that platform doesn't make it game-centric. Microsoft had their OS on just about any computer and toaster, and PC's were cheaper than Mac's. So aside from some developers that had Apple in mind specifically (Myst being one of those in the beginning) most of the attention went to Windows because that's where the money was.

korovev wrote:
Tomala wrote:
Valve already spoke out recently regarding the next version of Ubuntu dropping 32 bit from their OS (though the libraries will still be there, but not really maintained apart from security patches)


See the link I posted, Canonical is not dropping 32 bit support.


You forgot an important detail in that quote... but I fixed it for ya Skippy, so no worries. ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:30 am 
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Something to keep in mind is that Apple is mainly a consumer-oriented hardware maker, while Microsoft is a business-oriented software maker; Apple’s main software is iTunes, while Microsoft’s main software is Office.
With Boot Camp in the picture, Apple can claim that their hardware have the widest support for gaming (graphic card support aside); and it isn’t surprising that Microsoft goes to great lengths to keep backward compatibility, but not because of gaming.

Now granted, that’s not the common understanding of ‘Mac gaming’, and yes, Apple has been historically not fond of the gaming sector (which in terms of hardware I guess could be deemed closer to high-tech business sector). As far as macOS native support goes, of course, the situation is getting worse, but to a limit: many big names are in fact available and already 64-bit ready, and many (if not most) indie games attempt to support all three platforms.

Losing support for 32-bit software isn’t that much of an issue for current software; the real problem is with older software that won’t or cannot be rebuilt for 64-bit (and software based on libraries and frameworks that only exist on Windows, but that’s beyond the topic). It happened already with classic and PowerPC software, so I’m a bit pessimist here; at least CodeWeavers is trying to do something about this one.

As for Valve, I would be a bit surprised if they were to just abandon the macOS platform, given their former commitment to it. Valve threatening to stop developing Steam for macOS could put some pressure on Apple, but then again it could also be taken as one less competitor to the Apple Store. As an aside, any words from GOG?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:40 pm 
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korovev wrote:
Something to keep in mind is that Apple is mainly a consumer-oriented hardware maker, while Microsoft is a business-oriented software maker; Apple’s main software is iTunes, while Microsoft’s main software is Office.
With Boot Camp in the picture, Apple can claim that their hardware have the widest support for gaming (graphic card support aside); and it isn’t surprising that Microsoft goes to great lengths to keep backward compatibility, but not because of gaming.


If Apple is mainly for consumers and Microsoft is mainly business oriented, then why are so many companies marketing their consumer products to people running a business oriented OS?

korovev wrote:
Losing support for 32-bit software isn’t that much of an issue for current software; the real problem is with older software that won’t or cannot be rebuilt for 64-bit (and software based on libraries and frameworks that only exist on Windows, but that’s beyond the topic).


Image

Could have sworn there was a thread around here for that somewhere...

korovev wrote:
As an aside, any words from GOG?


Nada.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:35 am 
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Tomala wrote:
If Apple is mainly for consumers and Microsoft is mainly business oriented, then why are so many companies marketing their consumer products to people running a business oriented OS?

Because said OS can run in Apple’s hardware, so they don’t bother; while other companies, like Valve or Blizzard, have bet on the opposite strategy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:17 am 
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Yes, we have seen this before with Classic and PowerPC but does that make it right? (rhetorical question )

I think forcing all software to be 64-bit seems kind of silly, are they really an advantages to a word processor being 64-bit? Who edits 3 GB word documents? (challenge me! this is interesting)

Do 32-bit VMs run on the new MacOS? If you have a Mac, a VM with guest additions might be a good way to play URU but it would be hard for a normal user to set up.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:41 am 
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Jamie Marchant wrote:
are they really an advantages to a word processor being 64-bit? Who edits 3 GB word documents?

Some Excel or Access tables can get exceedingly large ;)
There are security features like ASLR that work best under 64-bit, and some exploits rely on weaknesses in 32-bit code. More generally, dropping support means less alternate lines of the same software or libraries to maintain.

It’s not like at Microsoft they have any love for 32-bit, they would drop it too if they could, but they have a much larger (corporate) user base that needs support for legacy code than Apple, which is why they’re forced to keep (some) compatibility even in Core OS.
Again, gaming has little to do with Windows’ continued support for legacy code; some game companies (e.g. Square Enix) are also dropping support for 32-bit versions of their titles.

Jamie Marchant wrote:
Do 32-bit VMs run on the new MacOS? If you have a Mac, a VM with guest additions might be a good way to play URU but it would be hard for a normal user to set up.

That seems to be where Porting Kit is going. 16-bit games are not supported on Windows 10, but can be played with DOSbox; so a ‘WinBox’ VM could be a solution.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:16 pm 
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What Korovev wrote. It's not that x64 is better (well, to be honest it often is - read below), it's that maintaining both types of libraries is a real pain - everyone would get rid of 32 bit apps if they could.

Jamie Marchant wrote:
Who edits 3 GB word documents? (challenge me! this is interesting)

You'd be surprised...
Aside from people collecting thousands of cat pictures to make PowerPoints out of them (yes, these people exist), it's very common for companies to exchange documents containing a lot of image references. Especially in marketing where they work at insane resolution levels (like images at 10k * 10k pixels).
On top of that, Joey Joe the marketing man doesn't really know anything about computers, save that his image must look good, so these people tend to stuff their whole image library into a single Word document (then wonder why their mail client fails sending the file to their collaborators, heh).
And remember that files themselves are often compressed to save on disk space, but when you actually open them your computer has to decompress the file and all the images it contains, which can quickly grow to a lot of RAM being used. Of course, part of programming is about overcoming these limitations by cleverly moving memory and partially loading data, but it's still an issue regardless.

Until now we were only speaking about Word documents, but bigger softwares can be even more memory hungry. Video editing and 3D engines, for instance. I occasionally work with both. I once had to convert an industrial CAD 3D model from one format to the other. The conversion process ate my 16 gigs of RAM available, then 8 more on the HDD due to memory swapping. As for video files, it's not uncommon to work with uncompressed video files of 30 gigabytes (especially for 360° movies). And I'm just a guy working at a small company.

Anyway, I hope this bit of trivia was entertaining :)


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