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 Post subject: Age creation tools
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:33 pm 
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I saw somewhere an interview with Rend Miller,and he said cyan want to add age creation tools about 6 monthes after the game is released. :)

Just for you to know.

The stranger.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:50 pm 
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Keep in mind that Rand can be quite optimistic at times... and something which Cyan hopes to do 6 months or a year down the road can be easily delayed by various unforseen circumstances.

If I'm thinking of the same interview you are, I'm pretty sure Rand didn't make any blanket statements about when something like Age creation tools would be released... simply when he'd like or hope to see something like that released.

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Last edited by Reverend Vader on Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:25 pm 
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This is the interview:

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/28/joystiq-interviews-rand-miller-of-cyan-worlds/

And this is what he said:

"...I should get into the mythology just a bit because the idea behind Myst is people writing books that link to their own ages. Our goal in this is to let people do that very thing. We want people to build their own age, to write their own ages. It's a very complex thing to do. It was in the mythology and it is right now, but that's the path that we're taking.

Explain how players will build ages. How far along are you to making that happen?

Rand Miller: Well to begin with, we want to give people the same tools we have. We've got a lot of expertise and experience, so our ages can get pretty sophisticated, but it doesn't mean that we can't make those same tools available to some people.

We're always amazed at what our fans are able to accomplish, frankly, and by making those tools available, I think we'll be even more surprised. We've held back on that because we want to make sure we've got the final version of the engine, so we're not switching those tools up on people so they don't lose their work. But that'll be the first step. Essentially what we're creating in the mythology of all this is a writer's guild.

People can learn to write ages using the tools, and they'll write ages and become better and better at it. And then we even want a guild that facilitates that, that lets them explore their own ages and keep them somewhat separate from ours but with ways to get to them.

But eventually while they're doing that, we want to improve the tools as well, so you don't have to be quite so sophisticated to build the worlds. And later on down the line, it's much easier to say, "I can take this piece of this world, and this one of this one, and this one of this one, and make my own space that feels much more personalized." And that's the stuff that we'll work on as well.

When will people be able to start building ages?

Rand Miller: Some of it is resource-based. We would like to release those tools after the first six months -- and there are pieces of that that are already being put in place behind the scenes. We're trying to set up some structures with people, and there are some fans that already kind of know about that.

Yeah, that's a very exciting aspect of all of this.

Mark Dobratz: There might be some smaller pieces we can put in place before that, too, clothing design, or something a little simpler that's a little more straightforward for people who have bright ideas to bring to the game."

"We would like to release those tools after the first six months..." :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:20 pm 
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Yes...

"We'd like to release those tools after the first six months..."

There was never a solid time table in place. He also mentioned that some of those kinds of things are already happening behind the scenes. In other words, there are already some knowledgeable fans that have been and are continuing to work towards the process of custom Age creation... with various levels of Cyan's blessing and approval.

Even if Cyan was able to release something soon, I doubt very much that it would be something you or I would find easy to use without some previous background in 3D-modeling and texture layering, among other things.

I know their goal is to make Age creation possible and accessible to anyone. For a while, it will likely only be possible for those with experience in those areas. As time goes on, the tools will likely become easier to use... with a less steep learning curve.

I wouldn't hold my breath until Age creation tools are released, however.

:wink:

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Last edited by Reverend Vader on Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:30 pm 
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It is more likely the tools will come from the community than it will from Cyan to be honest.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:01 pm 
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Ho...now I see...

Well...if cyan would like to do thet then it's good.

Liking is good...

Right? :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:07 pm 
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Liking is better than having the legal department send c&d e-mails. Unfortunately, Cyan does both.
In this case, however, it is simply a question of lack of resources.
Even documenting the specs is too much to ask for right now.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:13 pm 
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I also recall reading in an interview that Uru Live was going to have repeatable gameplay... However... :?
So, regarding the statements about Age creation tools I have become less hopeful than before. I'm thinking Cyan will probably choose to spend their time and money on putting out new Ages instead of Age creation software. I did a poll about what people would like to see in Uru (i.e. repeatable gameplay, Age creation software, or very rare big new Ages), and given a choice, people wanted rare big new Ages. Which I think is too bad, really. It shows that people would rather that Cyan spend their money on daily bread instead of on wheat seeds. There's a saying: Catch a fish for a man, and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. Well, I guess we'll see...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:27 pm 
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Jennifer_P wrote:
It shows that people would rather that Cyan spend their money on daily bread instead of on wheat seeds.


There are people (and I include myself in that group) that would rather see a professional Cyan-made Age than a fan-made Age. Nothing against those who would like to build Ages, but I don't think they'll ever get even close to the Cyan level of quality :)
Since they can't please everyone at the moment, and I'd assume that those interested in Age-building would be a minority consisting basically of hardcore fans, it makes sense that they are going for the majority and focusing on content rather than on age-building tools.


Last edited by joaopedro on Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:06 pm 
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I'd certainly agree with joaopedro here - I think that if Cyan were to concentrate on age creation tools, it'd be a big mistake.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:11 pm 
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Personally allowing people to create there own ages is a novel idea, but it would have to be very simple to do. Think of it this way, I do some web page building on the side for a racing club here in new york and also a guild web site for another game I play. I have to do alot of html editing and script writing to make the pages work correctly and in the way I want them to. Now If I wanted the sites to really jump out at you from a professional aspect i would then start working with flash or java programs to make the sites really pop, but Ive looked into doing so and just had the chair pulled out from under me as far as understaning how to use flash or java programs. Im smart but not that smart.
We would have this issue with other players. Some players are in the boat where the net is a simple point and click interface and they barely know how to do that as it is, some of them are more advanced and do web surfing,blogs and can google anything,some are like myself where you know alot about the net, where to go,where to look,some simple web page building,have a myspace that is reasonable looking, and some are sheer geniuses, they are the web masters and make the sites you see, they design code and build fatastic sites.
The same would apply to age building. For me yeah I could probably make something if the software was simple but it certaily wouldnt look professional. For some they would be clueless. Other people could have vast worlds with great graphics and storyline. That is the problem, when it comes to programming most people are clueless. The only way it could be made possible for all of use to make our own ages is if software was made simple. For example I use frontpage 2003 to make web pages, originally I had to type in html code to do what front page allows me to do by just clicking and dragging what I want.
Thats how simple this software would have to be, simple click and drag. But how do you do that with a 3d enviroment? The variables would be limitless and on top of that, if you could even make this software then youd be selling it to the masses of people who long to make thier own games but dont have the programming knowledge to do so. Then cyan would lose players, because of why play a game someone else created online when you can create a relm of your own liking and then share it with others?
Ive always had a dream of making a game of my own very much like uru but based on hunting for treasure and solving puzzles to find that treasure. Sort of like goonies (the movie) comes to pc and you have to find one eyed willie's treasure. I even started to write my own book based on uru in the past (my past not the games past) but lost interest in it due to how many facts I had to remember about past events in all the stories of myst to the last chapter at that time.
I wanted to make it uru of the future on how you as a stranger stuble upon Atrus' former home on the cleft and eventually end up in D'ni just like Anna did, but there is a whole new world of D'ni made by not D'ni but of the explorers like myself who stumbled upon it, and of worlds newly made by those people learning of book writing and age creation.
All a wonderful concept but how could I put my story into a game and make it work on my own with a complex program....
Personally if I could use this program, id probably be working for cyan,lol.
Im not saying some of you guys playing arent extreamly intelligent, some of you probably are programmers and could do exactly as cyan has. Kudos to you if you can, but for the majority of use wed be left clueless on how to implement our ideas. I doubt cyan will waste thier time giving thier program to the masses if most of us dont know how to use it. Much less the repercussions of other people stealing the program for thier own companys (gaming companys) use. Too many factors leading me to believe it wont happen. If they do give it out, im sure it will only be given to a select few who really know what they are diong and once they have finished it, then submit it to cyan for either approval or to have it hit the recycle bin.
Hope this all makes sense.
Well Ill see you all in game ;)
Stewart


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:34 pm 
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In the various public discussions, interviews, and Town Hall meetings with various Cyantists, they've indicated that fan-created Ages will (eventually) have a place in Uru Live. I believe Cyan has expressed that their idea is to have those Ages in a special section - perhaps/probably in the Library - so that folks will know they are linking to fan-created(OOC)/explorer-discovered(IC) Ages.

I imagine that some amount of Cyan approval and quality control will play an important factor in any "non-Cyan" age's release... as well as making sure that any content or story which plays a role in that age doesn't run "over or cross grain to" anything Cyan has done or has planned for the future.

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Last edited by Reverend Vader on Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:56 pm 
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joaopedro wrote:
Jennifer_P wrote:
It shows that people would rather that Cyan spend their money on daily bread instead of on wheat seeds.


There are people (and I include myself in that group) that would rather see a professional Cyan-made Age than a fan-made Age. Nothing against those who would like to build Ages, but I don't think they'll ever get even close to the Cyan level of quality :)


That's a fair position, but it's not like production on Cyan's ages would stop. I would rather have 3 Cyan-made ages and 10,000 fan-made ages than 5 or even 10 Cyan made ages...

Besides, lets say, hypothetically, that progress on the game *does* stop for 3 or 6 months, with only DRC story content in that time. Then, at the end of that period, we get age-creation tools that, say, only expert designers in the community can figure out, and in the meantime we miss out on lots of Cyan content (which is merely postponed, not canceled)...

Even in that scenerio, who could argue that the game wouldn't be better?

Imagine the repeatable gameplay! Imagine how the entire face of Uru would change! This would be Cyan's ticket to a sustainable gaming environment, not just for players, but for player-designers. It's what helped the FPS (first person shooter) community break out from Doom-era fandom to Quake-era phenomenon, which haralded gameplay advancements (capture the flag, role-based team combat, etc.) which changed how that genre of game was designed, by professionals, forever.

Given Cyan's statement that age-creation tools *will* appear, they have to realize that this isn't a simple "special feature" or game "bonus," but that this will be one of the most important aspects, if not the most important aspect, of attracting new players (designers and non-designers) to Uru.

It's not just "in the mythology," either, it goes toward the entire thesis of Uru, that the game will be supported by continuing content.

How can anyone dismiss that in favor of getting a few (no doubt incredible) Cyan ages a little earlier?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:26 pm 
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stewscotia wrote:
Personally allowing people to create there own ages is a novel idea, but it would have to be very simple to do. Think of it this way, I do some web page building on the side for a racing club here in new york and also a guild web site for another game I play. I have to do alot of html editing and script writing to make the pages work correctly and in the way I want them to. Now If I wanted the sites to really jump out at you from a professional aspect i would then start working with flash or java programs to make the sites really pop, but Ive looked into doing so and just had the chair pulled out from under me as far as understaning how to use flash or java programs. Im smart but not that smart.


You don't need flash to make professional looking sites, you just need a good design and good code ;) (the web designer in me talking) but yeah I get what you are getting at.

However implimenting Age creation is far from simple, creating Ages is far from simple.

Just take a look through this page http://alcugs.almlys.org/wiki/index.php ... orialsList

and you will see some of what needs to be dealt with, add on top of that learning blender in the first place if you do not know how to use the program.

I'm not getting at you, it's just a lot of people think Age building is simple and it really isn't.

Whether we shall see tools to make it simple (i.e., drag and drop kind of deal) remains to be seen.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:38 pm 
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Well,maybe cyan should just create a simple age creation tools.I don't think thet would be a problem.


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