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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:14 am 
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Let's assume that the Guild of Messengers will only have access to the DRC like the rest of us do: in cavern. There's still so much they can do:
  • Moderator: these are in short supply and are sorely needed. The rules are the same as they were on D'mala with the Liaisons. Benefit of being in the guild: you announce to the DRC that you are with the GoM, and they're sure to take you up on your offer to moderate.
  • Scribe: Take down the chat logs. When done, post them on the central GoM site, then go a step further: divide the chat log into questions and answers. Store them in a database for easy retrieval by explorers. [Note: raw chatlogs will always be available for review.] Before an explorer asks the DRC a question, they should first check on the GoM site if the question was already asked.
  • Press Reporter: If an explorer enters a question onto the GoM site that has not been asked yet, the Messengers append this to an ongoing list. They dispatch this to the Press Reporter, who - if they encounter a DRC member - will ask these questions on behalf of the explorers. The Scribe then stores the answers afterwards, and the explorer who originally asked it is notified.
  • Relayer: This has proven to be a useful technique. Anyone who is a member of the GoM hood will automatically receive feeds (because the Relayer is sending it to the neighbors). There can be two tiers of Relayers: one at the scene, and one in neighborhoods that have requested the service.


Like I said, the Guild of Messengers can work with what we currently have, and provide a great service to the community. True: people are already serving these functions without being in a Guild. But those who are members will be recognized by the community and will hopefully be allowed to do their job with full cooperation. The GoM lends credibility to their roles. No one doubts a Greeter, right?

EDIT: Another perk: when you're a GoM Press Reporter, the GoM Moderator will let you ask your questions first.

However, all this must be supported by the DRC to work correctly. They need to work with the GoM members in the crowd and follow the moderator methodology. More importantly, they need to provide the GoM with official guild T-shirts so that the GoM members will be recognized by the DRC and the crowd, who should give them the respect and cooperation that they are due.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:55 pm 
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Ok, I don't normally say anything without talking to those smarter than I am, but here I go.
The function of the GoM as I would like to see it, is as a facilitator between the different news groups, helping us communicate with each other and work together to help inform other explorers through whichever news media they choose.
I would like to see the GoM being run by a council comprised of one member of each group that belongs to this guild. Each member of the council would get one vote, assuring that no one group would have more power than any other group. Each group would remain autonamous about how their groups are run individually, but any decision that may affect other groups would be decided by the council.
Please remember that these are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the officail stance of the Relayer Corps.
That being said, please feel free to find the holes in this idea and point them out. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:23 am 
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I am also saying this independently of the Relayers of which I am a member, but I feel pretty much on the same lines as what Lynnutte is saying. Each group does what they do very well and I think a "governing" authority is not the right way to go here...A council composed of each group is probably the better way to go. We do accomplish different things here in different ways but we have a common goal of getting information out to the explorers in the best way we can and that is the whole point...getting the information out to everyone we can so they can feel they are part of what is going on. We all compliment each other in what we do. It is about service to the explorers here and I am hoping that that is the direction this proposed "Guild" takes. Excluding anyone has no place here. It is about what we can do for others.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:37 am 
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So, just out of curiosity, would any interested group be allowed onto the council? Or is there some sort of selection process, like, 'must produce set amount of publications over a certain amount of time'?

I assume this would be done by the council itself, but the question that begs to be asked is, initially, who would the council be made up of? The DRC/cyan? Groups selected by them?

But I agree. If the Guild were to be largely fan-operated (which I assume would be the case) all selected groups would have to have an equal say in its operation.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:06 am 
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I guess I'm not seeing the reason for a council at all. Saying things like, Each group will have one vote, presupposes they'll be voting on something. As I asked above, What problem would such a council be intended to solve? How would it add value to the news organizations that already exist and avoid just becoming a bureaucracy and an attractant for discord and arguments?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:57 am 
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I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here :lol:, and ask why does the GoM have to be an umbrella organization for multiple news groups? Why can't the formation of the GoM be a properly-motivated opportunity for all the existing news groups to come together, to WORK together, to pool their resources, to bring the best of each of their groups, and combine into one Single news source--the Guild of Messengers? I know, I know....it's easier said than done, but a single source DOES seem more ideal than multiple sources (even if they are all overseen by a single administrative group).

It may be difficult, and in the end it may not work at all, but it's worth a try, isn't it? Do you really believe that TCT/CCN/etc. are so different, and their leaders so ingrained in their ways, that they couldn't possibly work together to combine what they have to make something better? :)

Again, just playing Devil's Advocate :), but I really am interested to hear what you all have to say on the subject.

*shuts up* :)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:02 am 
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Speaking only for myself and not for the Relayers, I understand what you are saying Zardoz. The groups that are already in place and fall under this Guild category, have leaders and an organized system. They each govern their own. I can see the council as a unification tool for the groups within the same guild. They meet to discuss their group and what is working and what isn't. They can work to help each other.

And maybe a council is necessary in another way. Lets say after everything is in place a new news group springs up and they start reporting false information. Or they are a tabloid of sorts in the cavern. Or perhaps they are a political group trying to push their stuff on others. The council could vote to not allow that group to continue in the guild. Or they could take it up with cyan. A council could also help in not letting any one group gain too much power. If one group becomes a problem, the council could maybe do something about it.

Think of it this way.... The Guild of Greeters is a wonderful guild already in place. What would happen if a bunch of other groups declared they were in that guild as well, and there was no council or system set up to control that? Let's say these new people were calling themselves, the welcome wagon, but their people were rude, crass, and harrassing others and saying really inappropriate things. Extreme I know, but just saying. Cyan wouldn't allow that, but just for the sake of arguement. Or another example would be a group that joined under Gog's umbrella and they pretended to know things and gave out very false information.

There does need to be some sort of regulating of these types of things. I think that's the main reason for councils and guilds.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:46 pm 
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This is a good thread, Zardoz. I can see people really trying to figure this out. I haven't really had time to get involved, because the doing of the news has itself kept me very busy.

Zardoz wrote:
Paradox wrote:
Zardoz wrote:
Agreement not to Compete: The Guild agrees not to compete with subscribing organizations. For this reason, the Guild of Messengers does not allow individuals to subscribe to its service, nor does it provide official or unofficial news directly to the public.


... maybe I missed something, but if they don't distribute it through subscription, and they don't distribute it publicly... how does it get out? :?

Sorry, I'm making a distinction between individual explorers and news organizations like TCT and CCN. If the Guild distributes news to individual explorers, it competes with TCT and CCN. TCT and CCN don't have to subscribe, however, if they just want to use their own sources for reporting the news. Go to the AP website - you can't find any (or hardly any) AP reports there.


I don't feel that way, Zardoz. The same story, using the same materials and the same amount and kind of information can still be told a hundred different ways. At CCN, we see ourselves also as StoryTellers. The CavernCast is our "news" service to the community. Since our medium is audio and video, it takes a long time to produce. Sooo, we may never get a scoop, lol. If the Guild puts out it's own version of the news, great! I myself will go and see how it looks. I may even be involved. It certainly would be different from anything anyone else does. There is plenty of room for creativity. [edited for rambling]

What I see for the end-users of the talents and energy of the Messengers is a network of relayers, reporters, and journalists who also network with photographers, musicians, artists, videographers (Guild of Artisans comes to mind) AND who network with end-users. (These end-users might be Guild Members, or other organizations) Through the Messengers, end-users could have access to materials, use them in programs, and credit the artists for their work. By the same token, artists, musicians, photographers, videographers contact the Messengers should they have something for the “pool.” Should that be me, I don’t know right now what I would use, since we have a team of photographers and videographersof our own. But sometimes they don’t get enough footage, or maybe I’m looking for just the right pic.

How the Guild organizes all the Messengers will get worked out by the Messengers doing the work. I don’t see that anyone can know how to run it without just running for a while, first. Rather than telling prospective members what to do, ask them what they want to do, what they can do, what they have time to do. [edit: individual people I mean here, not other organizations] Just ask them. Let them tell you what they need as far as direction, governance, or skills. Or offer your skills to the Guild [if you are someone interested but not part of an organization]. Use this forum for now and just do it. Maybe GreyDragon will set up a subforum for the Guild. If not, use it anyway -- it doesn't belong to any one group. Let the guild figure itself out for a while.

I’ve wanted to ask for help for a long time, but didn’t know how to without making it sound like they would have to join CCN and work for us. This might surprise you, but no one att CCN works for each other – we’re a group of collaborators that work with each other and other community groups. What’s important to me (besides having fun) is to tell the story for the community. I may not need a Guild to do what I’m doing, but it would be nice to know there is a group out there on whom I could call for help, and return help when I can. Only today did I realize how I could now ask for help, offer what I have, and start a small cycle of "benefit-and-return." So I'm posting and asking the Guild of Messengers for help. We'll see what comes of the idea.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:27 pm 
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I don’t like the idea of the manufacturing of an umbrella group, it comes with problems. CCN was a manufactured umbrella group of TCT it didn’t work for a whole host of reasons. Yet both TCT and CCN could now been seen as grown umbrella organisations, TCT is a umbrella name for three separate groups all of whom share things between each other chat to each other. This is no single person in charge of TCT when someone has an article or news piece their not afraid of posting it on the main board it’s an umbrella organisation which has grown.
What I would like to see is an initial GoM council created with a forum and website with regular meetings in the cavern. Any group/person that ran a news/creative project would be able to join the council, be they TCT, the Relayers, MO, Dni Jazz, CCN or Uru Radio. The councils main purpose would be to get all of us talking and sharing what we know and to let each other know what we are currently work on. So an easy example would be real time news reporting, if something were posted on the MO boards or someone from the TCT extra were to come across some gossip it could be posted in a real time news forum, Relayers could place relevant chatlogs into this forum. So all the news groups have a central place to go for with their news, for the moment this could be the job of each groups elected member. The point of the website
Primarily we should try to get talking to each other and hopefully start to work together. With the idea that anyone who wants to support the idea can sign upto the board and also share information. The idea would be to create a focal point that’s officially supported for all the explorers to go to and find out about all the separate groups who might contribute.
As time moves on then ideas like establishing a formal guild can start, moving various news groups’ forums onto a central forum and perhaps the establishment of the guilds own projects such as a guild of transcribers, or a guild of translators. Whatever happens if a guild is started I honestly feel any positions created like the suggested council should be purely logistical with an aim and not to have anything to do with power or control and each group should run itself the way it wants to. I’d also suggest an NDA might be a very good idea for guild members as it could potentially allow Cyan to inform the guild of upcoming news and allow it to capitalise on events
I have already expressed an interest in trying to get a council or group meeting together I’m interested to know how many other groups think the same

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:45 am 
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I worked in radio for four years (NPR affiliate), so I can say that there is a huge difference between receiving a feed (AP or DRC) and producing an interesting/entertaining product ... I think there is plenty of room for an umbrella organization. If managed correctly, it will facilitate better/faster news for the cavern explorers.

This is what I would propose:

Governing Structure

    - Board of Directors, consisting of one leader of each participant organization (and maybe some at-large officials, if desired)
    - From this membership, the Board elects officials: President, VP, etc. They moderate the discussion and host meetings.
Member Organizations

Any organization may apply for membership, but they must demonstrate commitment to:

    - Longevity - they are here to stay
    - Truth - no made-up news stories, please
    - Quality - they take pride in their work
The Board reviews their application and votes to admit/deny membership. Organizations may reapply later without penalty. Every once in awhile, the Board checks to make sure member organizations are still in compliance (i.e., still active).

Trusted News Provider

Any organization may provide news to the cavern. Membership in the GoM simply signifies to explorers that they are a recognized/trusted provider. (You can still buy the National Enquirer, but you won't see it on a major cable network.)

Cooperation

One of the major advantages to unification is cooperation between news providers. For example, several groups work together to create a full-length documentary of MOUL's first year. Or, all organizations work together to publicize and raise interest in a yearbook. The Board of Directors would discuss these types of cooperative efforts.

Getting the Story to the User

The whole point of the GoM, as I see it, is to facilitate the process of getting news to the everyday explorer.

If Organization ABC breaks a story on their video podcast, they can share that story with Organization DEF's RSS feed. Explorer Joe Bob receives an alert on his phone from the RSS feed and rushes home to watch the podcast for more detailed information.

Meanwhile, the Town Criers alert those in-cavern that there is video footage of the latest bahro visit. All those explorers who just got to the cavern rush to the Web site to catch up.

Types of Organizations

These are just ideas:

    - Newspaper - daily/weekly
    - Video and audio podcasts
    - Multimedia news recaps
    - RSS
    - Twitter updates
    - MySpace bulletins/Facebook posts
    - GoM Web site with links to all news from all member organizations
    - Magazine - DRC celebrities, cavern style, and more!
    - Relayers for live events
    - Town Criers for recent events/in-cavern updates

Official News v. Unofficial News

Let's create our own news! If Explorer Sue Ann is appointed leader of the Guild of Writers, isn't that just as important as Nick White getting a girlfriend? It's time to take hold of our world and help our users learn to value their input just as much as the tidbits of DRC updates. This will also help generate explorer interest between episodes. Yes, the official DRC news is always going to be on the front page, but we should have reporters hitting the beat every day.

/End of Post

What do you think?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:53 am 
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shimmerillion wrote:
Let's create our own news! If Explorer Sue Ann is appointed leader of the Guild of Writers, isn't that just as important as Nick White getting a girlfriend? It's time to take hold of our world and help our users learn to value their input just as much as the tidbits of DRC updates. This will also help generate explorer interest between episodes. Yes, the official DRC news is always going to be on the front page, but we should have reporters hitting the beat every day.

What do you think?

I like much of what you have to say. I think also that this is very important -- involve the whole community. I just mostly wanted to reply because I listen to NPR a lot. I like their style.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:34 am 
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I just mostly wanted to reply because I listen to NPR a lot. I like their style.


LOL, me too. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:03 am 
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My attempt to seperate out the D'net's IC response to the Guild of Messengers, from any OOC efforts has proved itself mostly a failure.

I fully support the community's effort to build a Guild of Messengers, and you are welcome to any of the ideas and techniques the D'net used. It would not serve the Uru community to have the D'net trying to rebuild, and maintaining their status quo, while the community built a working GoM.

I suspect that some thought I would be one of the main ones to dive right in, and make the GoM happen. Who knows, maybe this was even Cyan's thought. Maker knows I've dived in to a dozen other things...

However, I am feeling overwhelmed and under-enthused at the idea of restructuring a cavern communications group for a second time. Selecting leaders, coordinating the different groups, sorting out tasks and tools and cat-herding from the ground up is more than I am able to do right now.

I hope the community can create a Guild of Messengers they 'can live with', and it is something the community has enthusiasm for, that will become a core and vital part of cavern life.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:09 am 
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shimmerillion wrote:
Let's create our own news! If Explorer Sue Ann is appointed leader of the Guild of Writers, isn't that just as important as Nick White getting a girlfriend? It's time to take hold of our world and help our users learn to value their input just as much as the tidbits of DRC updates. This will also help generate explorer interest between episodes. Yes, the official DRC news is always going to be on the front page, but we should have reporters hitting the beat every day.

What do you think?


I think this is really vital. Too often, explorer-based efforts are ignored because they are 'unofficial', despite the fact that they can add as much to the environment as DRC. This includes side efforts like Subterranean Restorations, the Fuzzy Physics Institute and the Deep City Documentary, to small things, like Brian Fioca returning and interesting characters like Echo McKenzie, to semi-official things like Reteltee and J.D. Barnes.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:50 pm 
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People can say what they want about the Guild of Messengers. They can ask for this to happen and that to happen.

What the real issue right now is obvious. Before you can have a Guild of Messengers, you need people. You can see from Eleri's post that a lot of work goes into organizing groups of people and getting things done. Also, from experience, many people get excited about doing this or that, then their interest wanes and they flake out.

I think the Guild of Messengers could be a good thing. For now, I'd just like to see more people getting involved. We need people willing to do the work part. We need people willing to report the events, post logs, do videos, etc. There are people already doing this, but it seems they are few in number and that means a lot of work for those dedicated few.

Perhaps we need recruitment to all the organizations that fall under this category first and foremost, then once they have a good running fully-staffed organization in place, then we can think about the Guild part.

Just my thoughts.

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