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 Post subject: Renaming the Bahro
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:42 pm 
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[cross posted to Uru Obsession and Myst Online forums]

A few of us have expressed some discomfort on the DRC forums about continuing to refer to the Bahro by the insulting "beast people" handle hung on them by the D'ni. I feel it is wrong to address any sentient creature in such a manner.

Therefore, I propose that the explorer community begin referring to them as the "Vahkhro" (or "Vahkro"), meaning "linking people", until such time as we can learn what they, themselves, wish to be called as a species.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:45 pm 
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agreed, I live the name, I'll be sure to tell my hood members! Thanks BrettM!

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 Post subject: Just a reminder
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:55 pm 
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Remember that use of the insulting term "Bahro" conveys nothing to the Vahkrho but only to your fellow explorers.
The Vahkrho communicate in the total manner that enables them to link at will to desired locations, they read your affect and gesture as well as hear your words because they listen in a "linking way" to who you are and what you mean.
Dancelink to them. Dance Peace. Dance Love. Dance Life.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:08 pm 
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Yeesha herself refers to them as the Bahro.

Beast, to me, does not denote something demeaning like "herd animal" or "burden animal" or anything, it denotes a creature with a non-human quality.

Bahro shows us that they are definitely non-human, but they are still people.

I will continue to use the current appellation.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:48 pm 
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IanWatson wrote:
Beast, to me, does not denote something demeaning like "herd animal" or "burden animal" or anything, it denotes a creature with a non-human quality.

Actually, the reason I started this topic on the DRC site was because I'm in the midst of reading The Book of D'ni in which Bahro is a term used to describe the slaves of Tehranee - and those slaves were actually their own people, not a different race or species. So, to me, it is derogatory.

The idea here is to clarify our thinking about who and what these beings are, and that maybe if we evolve our thinking about them, it will bring us closer to understanding them… which can eventually lead to better communication with them.

I’ve written a KI message to share in the cavern; if anyone would like it, please PM me with your KI #.

Thank you, Brett, for bringing the discussion over here. For those who would like to see the back discussion, it’s here:
http://forums.drcsite.org/viewtopic.php?p=42885#42885

Thanks also for coming up with this wonderful alternative word - Vahkhro. And, thanks to Andy Legate for suggesting "Free Linkers" which inspired this translation.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:53 pm 
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Ian Watson wrote
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Bahro shows us that they are definitely non-human, but they are still people.


from wikipedia-People People denotes a group of humans, either with unspecified traits, or specific characteristics (e.g. the people of Spain or the people of the Plains).

Therefore it is incorrect to call the Bahro people as they are clearly not human.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:13 pm 
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Anyone for a bahro-B-que?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:43 pm 
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Tai'lahr, what a cool concept to think about, ..thanks for starting this....

going to think it all over a bit, .... :)

thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Renaming the Bahro
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:50 pm 
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BrettM wrote:
[cross posted to Uru Obsession and Myst Online forums]

A few of us have expressed some discomfort on the DRC forums about continuing to refer to the Bahro by the insulting "beast people" handle hung on them by the D'ni. I feel it is wrong to address any sentient creature in such a manner.

Therefore, I propose that the explorer community begin referring to them as the "Vahkhro" (or "Vahkro"), meaning "linking people", until such time as we can learn what they, themselves, wish to be called as a species.


Is it really any less insulting to decide what we call them without asking them first? Not that we can ask them, but if someone just decided to change my name without asking, I'd be pretty upset.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:59 pm 
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I think if we asked them, they'd call themselves "SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAACH!!!SCRRAAAAAAAAAHHHHHSCRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEE!"

:lol:

or, you know...we wouldn't be able to pronounce it without going deaf or breaking a window or three. ;)

~Kia

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 Post subject: Re: Renaming the Bahro
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:01 pm 
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Frisky Badger wrote:
Is it really any less insulting to decide what we call them without asking them first? Not that we can ask them, but if someone just decided to change my name without asking, I'd be pretty upset.

You mean Bahro is their real name, so calling them something else is changing it? Or do you mean that what we call them obliges them to adopt the term for themselves? Which of the Bahro did you ask for permission before deciding to call them Bahro?

If someone who did not know your name walked up to you to start a conversation, would you rather he started out "Hey, buddy, what's your name?" or "Hey, savage, what's your name?" Does either choice actually change your name?

I just don't quite see where you're coming from, here. I simply want to stop calling them the D'ni equivalent of "savage" -- a word that implies the superiority of the speaker -- and use a less loaded term, until we can find out the right name to use. We do have to call them something in the meanwhile, since we need to be discussing our relationship with them.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:04 pm 
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Well what are the D'ni words for "friend-people"? or "honored-people"...something along those lines?

Whatever the D'ni equivalent for "buddy" is? ;)

~Kia

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:08 pm 
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The first thing that's coming to mind for some stupid reason is "Shizno" :shock:
:lol:

Ok, I admit it, I liked the series a little too much. But it won't make a real difference if we did call them by another name. The KI system already calls them bahro, which means Cyan calls them bahro.
A lone bahro looks around.
Explorer bows to the bahro.
A lone bahro bows back.
Explorer2 waves to the varlese.
Explorer: "The what?"
Explorer 2: "I meant the bahro. We call them varlese because bahro is insulting."
Explorer: "Hey, what do you thini of that, Mr. Bahro or Varlese or whatever?"
A lone bahro just watches. It doesn't speak that weird language of yours.


Seriously, there's nothing in this about how the bahro feel, it's all about how you feel (as admitted, true). Go ahead, call them whatever, it's your choice. But if you start complaining when other people call them bahro.. then you'll get problems.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:31 pm 
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I read the Book of D'ni after playing through Myst 5. When the book first used the term "Bahro," I had to put the book down and walk around a bit - it was a shock.

I do wonder, who started calling the Uru-version "Bahro," if they weren't mentioned in D'ni writing? Did Yeesha give them that name? Or Atrus? Perhaps, then, the name isn't intended to be derogatory, but to indicate how they've been treated.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:06 pm 
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Many years ago, I remember reading about a legend that said:
When a god really wanted to insult another god, he would call him/her "human lover".

I would not be surprised, one day, to learn that the creators of Uru knew about that legend and use it
as an explanation for the war within the Bahro factions.

re: human lovers/human haters.

Personnally, I have always seen a strong connection between our history and D'ni's history.


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