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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:44 pm 
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One thing I haven't seen discussed much (and admittedly I haven't read every single post -- there's just way too much!), is the creation of soundtrack and sound effects for that matter. I'm no computer programmer, but I am a composer and have complete professional midi studio at my disposal. Doesn't that skill play a part in creating an age?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:41 pm 
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Absolutely. In these threads, we're talking about "the skills needed to create an Age", rather than about particular skills. Which makes sense, at this stage.

A given Age will involve some or all of: original ideas, textures, 3D models, environmental sound, music, puzzle design, prose (for journals), animation, script code, and whatever else I'm forgetting. It's pretty clear at this point (and I hope I'm summarizing the past few weeks accurately) that:

* no single one of those skills is paramount.

* none of those skills is second-rate -- that is, we're *not* going to say "You can't be in the Guild because you're merely a <whatever>".

* nobody is terrific at all of those skills (although I intend to give them all a game try), so there will be a lot of collaboration.

* therefore, let's talk about how collaboration and organization will work.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:45 pm 
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If you exclude any one from the design or idea tools people will see this as elitist and stop playing.
I have no experience of programing but have written campaigns for several table top RPGs one of which has lasted over 6 years of playing once a week. I can wright detailed ages including pics of textures concept art but do not have the skills to put them together. i can wright letters, plots and fine detail till the cows come home (no need to put monsters and loot together).
But i have not got the skills to program (yet).


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:05 pm 
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belford wrote:
* therefore, let's talk about how collaboration and organization will work.


I'm all for that. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:51 am 
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Added answers from mckendall, Kiril and bahane.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:47 am 
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The Noble Robot posted something in the "Supporting" Guilds thread:

http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewto ... 323#206323

I want to reply, but I'm moving the reply here, because this is about membership rather than about guild supporters. (I agree with what TNR said about supporters: there should be absolutely no stigma.)

Quote:
I find that in those conversations, everyone wants to be called a "writer," whether they do something for the guild or not. This is especially true of people who are extremely enthusiastic about the guild and willing to put their ideas for ages forward, but unable (or more probably, unwilling) to learn the skills required to create ages. These explorers (rightly) want some recognition for their enthusiasm... and they really, really want to be called "writers."

This I can understand, but I think it's totally unfair to those who torture themselves to learn how to create ages, textures, music, etc to have to share the title with people who, while no less valuable, don't have the same skills and simply want the title for everyone. I try, but I can't help but think, and hope it's not an unfair assessment, that while most of these people argue for this on the basis of "democracy" and fairness, they simply want the title for themselves (fiery abyss, I would).


Okay, I want people who contribute ideas to be called "Writers". I want everyone whose goal is a new Age to be called "a Writer". But I don't say that because of democracy or fairness. (You all get to decide whether I'm motivated by greed or pride.) I say it because I think it will make a better Guild -- by which I mean, it will get more Ages written.

You want the title "Writer" to be valuable, and you worry that people who are unworthy of the title will lust after it. Probably true. But a title is only valuable when we *make* it valuable; by proclaiming it, by making it hard to get, by being proud *of* it.

When you create a treasure, you are creating a need to protect it. In this case, that means rules to decide who is worthy of the title "writer"; it means penalties for misusing it. And you are creating a desire to steal the treasure. That is, people will use personal friendships to slide past the rules; they'll lie about their skills, or cheat on whatever tests you come up with. (And you'll certainly need tests -- why, if you don't demand proof, *anybody* could say he's a Writer!)

And *none of this energy is about writing Ages.* None of it. It has exactly nothing to do with the Guild's goal, which is getting Ages written. The more the Guild focusses on who is a Writer, the less the Guild is about Writing.

(...second post follows...)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:48 am 
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My theory from the beginning was, make the positions free. Everybody's in; everybody who cares about making Ages can be a Guild member, a Writer. What results from this policy?

First result: thousands of players put "Writer" on their business cards. Absolutely. Next result: the title "Writer" becomes meaningless. My policy has, literally, devalued it. Does that horrify you? I think it's *great*. Because the next result is, nobody asks "Are you a Writer?" It's a pointless question. Nobody says "I want to be a Writer."

Instead, people have to ask: "What have you Written?" And say: "I want to Write." And *there's* the goal! "What have you Written? Was it good? What are you working on now? What are you working on next? That sounds great, can I help?" *Now* you've got people excited -- aiming towards -- the Guild's goal, rather than the Guild itself.

Frisky Badger wrote: "Proud of our work, not of our position". Exactly right; that's what I want to bring about. That means: value the work, not the position.

You're saying that coming up with an idea for an Age is the easy part. I totally agree! Ideas are cheap; I've got a three-page list of Age ideas myself; I'll post it if you're curious. Showing off your list of ideas will *always* be less impressive than showing off a finished Age.

But you don't need a *Guild rule* to tell people that ideas are cheap. When the question is "So, what are you working on?" then the answer "I've got this idea" is simply not a great answer. (Unless it's one heck of a great idea! Which possibility we should not neglect.) The situation you want comes out automatically; supply and demand.

I am *not* proposing universal equality. So this poor aspirant shows off his idea, and everybody says "Mm-hmm. Come back when it's finished." Does he feel excluded? Sure; that's human nature. Other Writers are getting accolades, and he's not. But what is he excluded from? Not from Guild membership, and not from the title "Writer", because he got those for free. He is only excluded from *having gotten work done.* And only he can change that. *All he can do* to improve his standing is -- Write. Start developing his skills, or start effectively organizing some people with skills. Start working, or learning, or practicing. Even just download the tools and fire them up.

And that's the goal. That's what brings each Writer's motivation in line with the aim of the Guild, which is *getting Ages written.*

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:14 am 
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hear, hear Bedford!

Personally I have no interest in what I may or may not be called. I know what I am, and what I can and cannot acheive.

The reward for my labours would come from seeing my creations in-game, not being called a writer or artist or creator.

If memebers of the Guild do not consider my work of a standard high enough to warrant inclusion into a new Age, then I must listen to my peers' advice and simply try harder to produce better quality work.

Calling yourself a comedian does not make you funny ... making people laugh makes you a comedian, (even if you don't call yourself one).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My answers to the questionaire:

1. Who is eligible for membership in the UGoW?
a)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. What skills are considered necessary to building an age?
b)

... but ... we need lots of additional skills besides those included in this response including organisational skills, creative thinking, admin, etc.

(I may be getting confused here, but I thought the Guilds would produce ages, not individuals???)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. What should a member of the UGoW be called by the general community?

...surely, there can be only one answer to this question : "A member of the Unofficial Guild of Writers" ... ??? ( and I don't have that option to choose) so I guess I'll have to go with
a) - (though personally it's not something that concerns me. People will call themselves whatever they like...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. How should the UGoW control access to age creation tools and their documentation?
a)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5. Who should be able to produce ages for the general community?

err... I thought the Guilds were "producing" Ages , not an individual Guild or individual people ???
(sorry if I'm being a bit simplistic here, but I thought that was the whole point of the Guilds ... ???... and this Guild alone cannot "produce" an Age... it would need testing (Maintainers), mapping (Cartographers) etc.
I thought the purpose of The Writers Guild was to write Ages, not produce them?

Any individual who is talented enough to write a complete Age on their own would still need it testing (Maintainers Guild) etc,. etc., etc.

... so, I can't really choose either of the two options you have supplied. My answer would have been ...

c) The Guilds

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sorry if this seems like a bit of a "rant" ... it's not, honest ;)


p.s. Belford... sounds like you and me are going to get on well ... :)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:15 pm 
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belford: I appreciate your thoughts on the topic. It would be fantastic if you could explicitly select specific answers to the questions above, then I can formally register your opinions with the others. When I originally formed the topic, I had provided answers for 4 and 5 on your behalf, based on your comments during the 26 August meeting - but I feel uncomfortable putting words into your mouth.

boblishman: I added your answers for 1 - 4 above. Regarding question 5:

boblishman wrote:
err... I thought the Guilds were "producing" Ages , not an individual Guild or individual people ???
(sorry if I'm being a bit simplistic here, but I thought that was the whole point of the Guilds ... ???... and this Guild alone cannot "produce" an Age... it would need testing (Maintainers), mapping (Cartographers) etc.
I thought the purpose of The Writers Guild was to write Ages, not produce them?

Any individual who is talented enough to write a complete Age on their own would still need it testing (Maintainers Guild) etc,. etc., etc.


The question centers on who you believe should have the "right" to release ages to the general community, and not who should have the ability or means. I've reworded the question accordingly, to avoid further confusion.

Given this clarification, boblishman, what would be your answer to question 5?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:45 pm 
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1 a
2 b
3 a
4 a
5 a

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:07 pm 
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Robert The Rebuilder wrote:
The question centers on who you believe should have the "right" to release ages to the general community, and not who should have the ability or means. I've reworded the question accordingly, to avoid further confusion.

Given this clarification, boblishman, what would be your answer to question 5?


Robert, (please believe me when I say that) I'm really trying not to be pedantic over this question ... but shouldn't this question be:

5. Who should have the right to submit Ages to Cyan for eventual release to the general community?

surely no-one (not even the Guilds themselves) will be able to "release" an Age ... wont Cyan will have to do that??

If this is actually what you mean, (which I susspect), then my answer would definately be:
a)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:56 pm 
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Added Chacal's answers.

boblishman wrote:
surely no-one (not even the Guilds themselves) will be able to "release" an Age ... wont Cyan will have to do that??


Note that the Unofficial Guild of Writers is only concerned with producing ages for Uru: Complete Chronicles. [See our mission statement.]

The "official" Guild of Writers discussions are all speculative at this point, since there is currently no support from Cyan. So, we *do* have the ability to release an age for Uru: Complete Chronicles to the general public - except we first must get permission from Cyan to do so.

If you want to know more about the Uru:CC age creation process, see this link: http://alcugs.almlys.org/wiki

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:37 pm 
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If (when) Cyan opens up a system for player-created Ages in Uru Live, they will certainly have some rules. But we can't know what those will be, and there's no point to bending over sideways to accomodate what we *guess* they'll be.

("Cyan vets everything" isn't the only possibility, either. They could have a separate Nexus, or even a separate Uru server, for unapproved Ages. Or there could be several release stages, depending on how well-tested or well-liked an Age is.)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:43 am 
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belford wrote:
... or even a separate Uru server, for unapproved Ages.
I thought (hoped?) D'mala was going to be used for that. I think it's a shame that it wasn't possible.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:15 am 
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ANNOUNCEMENT: I will close this topic at 00:00 GMT Saturday 22 September. Please post your opinions before then, as we will be forming the guild soon thereafter.

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