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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:50 pm 
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Now that the first Halleluruh! is over with and the critics have come in (welcome to you too!), I thought it might be a good moment to get one thing out of the way. We all better get used to it and soon, because from now on we will hear it a LOT: Cyan can't do it (right now, just yet). If we want something done, we either do it ourselves, or hire somebody to do it for us.

Do you want a completely overhauled engine, with the latest cutting edge techniques? Sure, go ahead, convert the game! Cyan can't do it.
Do you wish new ages, full of eye candy, puzzles and Uru lore? Absolutely, we want them too! But you will have to create them yourself, because Cyan can't do it.
Visualize a perfect hierarchy where Cyan, Guilds, Players and Critics all have a perfect role, defined to the last dot on the last i? Please! Set it up, Cyan can't do it.

In short, at this moment, for the forseeable future, if you want something done, do it yourself! (But if it is major, don't forgot to contact Cyan first of course, they are still in charge). This is today's reality, like it or not, take it or leave it.

I hope this is a post that will please both nay sayers and yay cheerers alike ;)

/end of tonque in cheek post ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:00 pm 
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Thank you! Someone else who realizes that!


That's why I'm wondering if we'll be able to touch the existing ages and be able to fix them up with enhancements. Because Cyan doesn't have the staff for that, and has also shown they prefer new ages over fixing old ones (which made sense really.. building a new age for everyone versus an old modification that'll be "not a new age" to oldbies and not even noticed to newcomers (who hadn't seen the age before)? Obvious choice).

The interface fix? I've been talking about the KI for years. I wish I knew python.. I can code but only in C and java, and not that great (I'm rusty). But I can offer suggestions and design changes.. give us the code and let us beat that interface into submission. Some people say it's a puzzle like the rest of it.. I say I call your bluff. Interface should be self-explanatory, otherwise the game is just obfusciated and frustrating.

Plotline? People have probably seen what the SR guys are doing. Imagine now them becoming an actual official DRC-like group with funding running in the cavern too. And imagine suddenly the two groups coming at it in the cavern in a big episodic spectacular, explorers along with them picking sides over new vision and enthusiasm or dependeable and experienced albeit a bit slow working? And Yeesha to the side with others too... and a resolution coming soon but is it what we want? It's certainly not known now, not even by Cyan!


And that's a start. We want new clothes, new animations, new ages, new puzzles, new game areas, new this and that. Who's going to be the first to make a dedicated amphitheatre age with nothing animated and a large ACTUAL stage with room for a crowd to sit and all be watching? With linking area way off from there past at least one visnode cutoff so it saves on processor for everyone? That'd go right on someone's front-end shard to be sure, and would be booked for all major events. Cyan can't do that, not right now. They could but not as fast as we can for sure.


I'm becoming more and more enthused about MORE. Not because of it being Uru, so much as because this time it's our chance to shine, to show what we can do, show the world what a dedicated group of talented fans can make. The first fan-made and fan-expanded game there.. with actual plot and cohesiveness (meaning we can show those SL people what player-made areas is REALLY about! :P)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:12 pm 
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Actually Sophie, you have hit the nail on the head here. Thank you.

I think it is desperately important to get the message across to people that this is on OUR shoulders now. We ARE Cyan's staff as far as this game is concerned. If we don't tow the line here, URU fails, and we have no one but ourselves to blame.

So yes, we are going to have to accept that other people will be in charge of certain aspects of the community. That's a hard pill for some people to swallow, but that's the only way this will work. I know we can do it. Just remember that it will be Cyan who has the final word in things. Doing things this way prevents agendas and favoritism.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:17 pm 
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Cheers Sophia :) Well put. I'll help 'push' as Zander states in his post.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:43 pm 
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Completely agreed.

The future of the game - its success or failure - is almost entirely dependent on us now.

That can be viewed as a terrible thing, that Cyan isn't doing much with Uru right now, but it can also be viewed as a huge opportunity for the fanbase to define the future of MOUL/MORE.

I, for one, choose to see it as an opportunity. I'm excited about making worlds for the game. It sounds like a lot of fun.

I think that with better tools, which we'll soon have, we'll see better fan ages, and that's something to be excited about.

We need to extend and improve Uru on our own, and build it (both the game itself and the community which supports it) through all available means so that it can thrive and, in due time, be profitable enough that it can pay the salaries of a decent number of Cyan's staff.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:02 pm 
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Quote:
Thank you! Someone else who realizes that!
No Gondar I think there are a few of us and I totaly agree with just about everthing. If we, the UrU community want it bad enough and Cyan are willing to give us a chance, then I say lets go for it. But do it as a whole community and not let petty differences get in the way of creating something that has never been done bofore. I am not aiming this at anyone, unless the cap fits. :D
But I am just a lowly messenger with no idea on the tech side if things but I think I get the picture. How cool is this, I am buzzing with the possiblities. Communication is the biggest tool we have and the one that will be most needed and we do have the means to just that, right across the world.

Szark


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:18 pm 
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You're right, Cyan doesn't have the capacity to create a pipeline of new content (one might argue that they never really did), nor do they seem to be able to scrap the code and start anew (even though that might be the smartest long-term option). But a "hierarchy where Cyan, Guilds, Players and Critics all have a perfect role?"

Really? Cyan can't do that?

I mean, I was making custom maps and mods for the original "Quake" over a decade ago, and the system that idsoftware designed (which consisted initially of 1 coder and 1 designer) worked pretty well. We even created games that didn't ask you to fire a singe shot, too! We created films and invented the "machinema" genre, and we had a social hierarchy that makes Uru Guilds look like the middle school party planning committee.

Why were we able to do it (and why do games of all kinds like it continue to support rich communities like it)? Because the developer prepared for and designed the core of the system (with it's own native programming language) and implemented it right-out-of-the-box. The community needed to develop some of the tools, the websites, etc, but they got specific guidance from the developers.

Of course, this is not a totally or even generally fair comparison, because Uru is a MMORPG (although MORE doesn't sound like it will retain many of the elements that keeps it in that genre), but I think the point is that we have to stop thinking of this goal of a user-driven community as an insurmountable mountain that can only be achieved if we get off our asses and form a congress. The community can't really do anything without guidance, direction, and especially, infrastructure from Cyan.

The good news is, that their plans to finally release some of their tools will go a long way toward making that possible.

But it is up to them, and no, it's not something they "can't do."

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:31 pm 
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Sophia hit the nail on the head, and Nynaveve drove it in. Unofficially we are Cyan's Intern/Interim staff. We are the ones who must make the content for Uru now. The ones who must keep it alive, and make it grow. And it must be a group effort.

There are those out there that like to work solely with sound, those who want to work on textures, those who model and those who program. What these people need to do is come together. Share resources, ideas and visions. I for one love to make ages. I'm great at modeling, semi good at texturing, and pretty much suck at everything but python when it comes to programming. And even that I'm shaky on. But I still make ages, and I do it alone. Mostly people are making their ages by themselves, and I don't see a problem with that. There are groups who work together, and age writers who work by themselves. But what we need most of all is cooperation to make this fly. There's an interesting discussion going on right now over at the Guild of Writers, where they're talking about renting a server. This server will be a database for textures, sounds, models, and one day possibly a front end shard. This is the kind of stuff we need. We need groups of people who enjoy a particular aspect of age creation to come together as one. Texture designers helping other texture designers. Sound people helping other sound people. Programmers with Programmers. These people should come together and share their ideas, resources etc. Then pass those resources off to a server, that becomes a database for all of age creation. One place where everything is, so that indiviudal crafters, and groups of crafters can use the resources to make truly inspiring Cyan like ages.

Because let me tell you, those truly beautiful ages will bring in new people. New Explorers will arrive when they hear that monthly, maybe even weekly, new ages are popping up, new relto objects are available. New clothes are appearing in ages and closets. These things are what is going to bring in the new explorers. This is what Cyan had such trouble with when they were with gametap. There wasn't enough new content coming in on a regular basis to inspire people to stick around.

Now there can be, because Cyan's can jump from 10 people to hundreds. Some of us may not have the time to dedicate hours a day to making the content. Those people can instead offer their ideas for new ages, and those new ages can be built by the ones with the time, with the help of those who are interested in small areas of age creation.

It can be done. I'd rather see Uru flourish, and show the world the vision that Rand and company had for it all those years ago, then watch it wither and die. But it won't happen if we don't work together and make it happen.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:48 pm 
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Very nice to read this thread! I feel the same, only problem for me is I'm not yet sure where I can fit in as I wouldn't have the foggiest idea of how to create ages. I'm sure things will become clearer as we get started - I'll be involved any way I can.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:17 pm 
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Side note.....
Sophia wrote:
Halleluruh!
Love it Sophia - thanks for the :lol: .

Back on topic - I think everyone here has made some valid points. I even found myself agreeing with TNR's point that Cyan must be the primary source for guidance, direction and infrastructure. They are the head of this body - and without the brains in that head the rest of the body won't be able to function. But the head can't go anywhere or do anything right now without the rest of the body - us. As TNR indicates - it is a two way street and if there isn't flow both ways the whole "Restoration Experament" could come crashing down.

It will take all of us - Cyan and Fans - to get this child called URU crawling. Then walking. Then running. Then - dare I dream? - flying to grab that "pie in the sky".

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:20 am 
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Always enjoying all of your thoughts and ideas. Of course I wrote that post in jest, but yes, I find it thrilling too that finally "we" get to participate on a level like we have never been able before.

In the past, if we wanted something, all we could do was post a suggestion and hope it reached somebody. Now, we can grab some buddies, form a team and work towards making the needed change!

I fully agree with some of you, yes, certain guidelines will have to come from Cyan and they will not delegate their final authority ever, I'm sure of that. As I said, I was joking for the most part.... just some food for thought (regardless if your thoughts are negative or positive) :D


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:24 am 
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I'm pleased with the direction things are going given the situation at hand. I know there's a lot of talented folks here that have been dying for a chance to channel that anxious energy towards real progress instead of standing around and complaining that nothing is being added.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:53 am 
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As it is now I agree with you all. Certainly it will stop those who complain of such things to keep a little quieter. After all, if you're not happy with how things are in the game then do it yourself. And they now will have the means.

Even so, I hope that what is produced will have some restrictions in place in order to keep the feel Uru that we all love. I would hate this game to go the way of SL. I do believe that Cyan should have the last word on any fan created stuff before any of it is implimented. As such some group will have to be formed if only to sift through all the submitions and pick those that cater to certain guide lines and are are of a certain quality. If all the boxes are ticked then they can send the Age or what ever it is Cyans way who have finale say. Even if its just a quick glance with a stamp of approval.

Even so, if the guidelines are adheard to then it could be possible that Cyan will not need to check any of ther Ages etc. However at first I am sure they will be keeping at least one close eye on what we are all doing. Just until we have proven that we can stand on our own two feet.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:45 am 
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:roll: Seems everything in this topic needing to be said and addressed has been already. So I can only say, I agree! :D


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:55 am 
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First of all, well said Sophia and everyone else! But I'd like to bring up another point in this thread because I think it is the appropriate place.

We will also now be responsible for the marketing and promotion of the game. Cyan has no resources to do this. Getting the numbers of explorers to grow to a successful level will be completely down to us. With this responsibility must come an awareness of how the game appears to newcomers. If 80% (an arbitrary number) of the user base are involved in creating, building and/or testing the game and are mostly discussing this in Cavern, it won't be a very interesting scenario for newbies to come into. Nobody wants to hang with a bunch of people talking about texture maps and Python files.

We need to be aware of the appearance of the game to the outside world. It cannot just be a workshop for the Guilds. Personally I think this will be the biggest challenge that faces us: how to make MORE look like an attractive place to be, rather than a development project (even though that's actually what it will be). Because if we can't attract ordinary fun-seeking people to this project then it will end up being nothing but a playground for developers.

Please note that I am NOT being negative here. I am merely bringing up a major point that we should all be aware of from the outset, so that we can procede with the FULL picture in mind. :D

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