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 Post subject: Previously Unknown Lore
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:40 am 
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I haven't seen a thread discussing this yet, so I hope I'm not repeating anything.

As I'm sure you all know Cyan released some of the Uru design documents as part of the M25 Kickstarter. In reading these some new information about not only the Ages but also some characters is revealed. Specifically, I'm thinking about Kadish here.

From Uru we know he's a bit of an egotistical mean person/people, however, what is revealed in the Kadish Tolesa design doc is that...

[Reveal] Spoiler:
...the bulk of his wealth did not come from his gallery store, but rather the sale of black market Books. His store was basically a front, albeit a successful one. He actually had knowledge of Veovis and A'Gaeris' plans but rather than alert authorities, he instead prepared Kadish Tolesa as a place to escape to when things went down. It sounds as if this was originally going to be a safe place for his family, but as he acquired more possessions they came more important to him, thus housed with wealth in the Age. In fact, when the Fall did happen he abandoned his family to be with his possessions.


This is a fascinating look into Kadish as a character, and I think really changes the way you look at his Age when exploring it.

However, as much of this information doesn't appear in-game, I wonder if it can be considered official canon?

Personally I think it can as this was clearly Cyan's intentions for the character, even if they never did implement it into Uru before it closed (it's possible this info could have been revealed at a later date had Uru continued).

Something like the Gate Puzzle (also in the Kadish doc) can't be considered canon as it's something we should be able to physically see in-game, but it was never implemented. However, this info about Kadish himself can be seen as simply new information that was not previously revealed and thus can be considered canonical.

What do you guys think? As I reckon I think it makes Kadish all the more interesting but I'm keen to hear other's thoughts.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:44 pm 
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I agree: all this (Teledahn, Sharper, Kresh/D'ni relations!) is too good to neglect. Unless something's been contradicted or obviously changed, I'd want to put it in the same category as background information from any other source.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:46 pm 
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That definitely sounds like the type of character, yes, so I'd say it's quite likely. Plus I like the idea.
With that said, "canon" is a dangerous word subject to interpretation; unless someone from Cyan staff validates the idea I'd avoid the word entirely for fear of being whipped :)

Interestingly enough Teledahn's design doc also depicts Sharper as a really bad guy, while in Uru his journals don't make him look that bad (IIRC).

Have you read the Ahnonay one too ? (my favourite). Specifically...
[Reveal] Spoiler:
In CC it is revealed Kadish built Ahnonay, and one puzzle element is even shared between Kadish Tolesa and Ahnonay, IIRC.
However, among other interesting things, in the design doc the author of the Age is not mentioned by name (he is only referred to as "The Engineer", which is also the case in the game files). He is said to have finished his life exiled in Ahnonay in an attempt to make up for his arrogance of believing he was the grower.
Thus originally Cyan intended those to be two different persons; Kadish finally replaced the engineer as an afterthought. And I think it's a rather good choice, too, as it fits the guy. Although one could debate that it's too bad dropping the part about Ahnonay being unstable, but I guess this was more of a time constraint than an actual choice. Ahnonay's final area is rather unfinished.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Deleted or unused scenes in film are not canon, even when fully rendered and scored. The same is likely true here.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:28 pm 
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See also viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29048 for discussion ;-)

The Kadish story sounds nice. But there are also fan theories that Kadish thought he was the Grower, was revived by Yeesha and actually killed Calam (who is mentioned in Myst V). The reason for this speculation is the mysterious empty vault that you can link to.

So it could also very well be that Cyan later on changed the backstory of Kadish to become more part of the Bahro/Yeesha storyline. But that's all very much speculation.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:23 am 
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Erik wrote:
The Kadish story sounds nice. But there are also fan theories that Kadish thought he was the Grower, was revived by Yeesha and actually killed Calam (who is mentioned in Myst V). The reason for this speculation is the mysterious empty vault that you can link to.


Yeah I don't buy that theory myself, doesn't really work with the timeline.
Plus the Kadish she "saved" isn't "our" Kadish it was a Kadish from an alternate branch as indicated by the changes in design elements to the Vault.

Plus if Yeesha had gone back in time to save Kadish who was our Kadish then our Kadish would not be in the vault for us to find in the first place, indeed we wouldn't even be aware he died originally. Timey wimey and all.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:01 am 
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Bah, in my canon, Bahros are Hello Kitty fans, because it fits my interpretation of the word "canon" :shrug: Sarcasm aside, I don't care for canon, the word itself doesn't make any sense.

Personally the time-travel theory is the most inventive I heard, and it matches with my opinion of what is possible (aka the annoying "suspension of disbelief"). Good for me.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:43 am 
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The Vulcan Science Directorate has determined that time travel is impossible not fair.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:40 pm 
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@Tweek, hmm, good point. Still the question remains, what's the story behind the alternate vault? Especially since it was slightly changed between URU:CC and MOUL (the torn scraps of paper IIRC) it has got be something important.

And the thought that we might never find out what it was all about, is almost unbearable. :lol:

I do hope Cyan will eventually bring closure to some of these loose ends, preferably in a new game. ("Cautious optimism")

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:13 pm 
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Erik wrote:
I do hope Cyan will eventually bring closure to some of these loose ends, preferably in a new game. ("Cautious optimism")


I hope to be alive for that release... #DiehardfanCyan

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:00 am 
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JWPlatt wrote:
The Vulcan Science Directorate has determined that time travel is impossible not fair.

Haha ! A good point, to be honest. In this case it doesn't bother me much, but in most sci-fi movies I can't help but roll my eyes whenever time travel is involved. It's like, "it's possible because magic". Rather unsatisfying.

Erik wrote:
@Tweek, hmm, good point. Still the question remains, what's the story behind the alternate vault? Especially since it was slightly changed between URU:CC and MOUL (the torn scraps of paper IIRC) it has got be something important.

I would really enjoy hearing about it too. The only other explanation I can think of would be someone modifying the original Descriptive book without altering the existing Linking books, which would somehow link to a version of the Age in which Kadish never linked, which means the Vault wasn't emptied, but simply never filled, which would be a nice twist. However I fail to find a purpose to that...

Erik wrote:
I do hope Cyan will eventually bring closure to some of these loose ends, preferably in a new game. ("Cautious optimism")

Personally I think I would be a bit disappointed if the explanation was too simple. I wouldn't mind well-done closure, though. This second vault mystery is like a big puzzle which is missing some clues, I'd rather solve it myself with some new clues than have someone open it for me. Not that I'm really good at puzzles, but you know, wondering is fun.
Looking back, that's something I rather enjoyed with Uru (and PotS in particular): some parts of it can't be solved in a single day. Ahnonay's sphere puzzle and the Path of the Shell in the Watcher's pub are both so convoluted yet simple you'd have a hard time figuring those out by yourself, and it might take you days. The same goes for some elements of the story. This might simply be clumsy design, but I still think it's rather appropriate for an MMO you're supposed to play over the course of several months.
Riven had very good puzzles which were part of the environment and scattered all about, which means you'd either miss those entirely or wouldn't know which puzzle to solve first.
Uru on the other hand decided to give you a single locked door with a puzzle just beside it, self contained in the Age, and just let you bang your head against it. While in some cases it simply didn't work (Kadish's puzzles were rather bad IMHO), in other cases it was really interesting and rewarding to solve. The alternative vault feels a bit like this kind of puzzle to me...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:18 pm 
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Sirius wrote:
Bah, in my canon, Bahros are Hello Kitty fans, because it fits my interpretation of the word "canon" :shrug: Sarcasm aside, I don't care for canon, the word itself doesn't make any sense.

Personally the time-travel theory is the most inventive I heard, and it matches with my opinion of what is possible (aka the annoying "suspension of disbelief"). Good for me.

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:25 am 
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Sirius wrote:
In this case it doesn't bother me much, but in most sci-fi movies I can't help but roll my eyes whenever time travel is involved. It's like, "it's possible because magic". Rather unsatisfying.


My thought, tho, is that if you're linking to an alternate world using the Art, it's possible that there's an additional 'value' that can be input into the description, that would denote a point in the history of that Age. I suppose once someone links into an Age, and no 'date' was specified then the link is random, and forever after the Ages' timelines become 'synchronized' at the moment of first link-in.

Isn't that the whole 'folklore' of the Grower-- how spoiler:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Ahnonay was supposed to be fooling people into believing Kadish had the power to link thru time, within an Age-- to convince people he was the Grower, himself?
Time-travel's already in the mix. It's something Yeesha, as the Grower, is supposed to be able to do. And during the brief time she succumbed to D'ni pride, Yeesha could have chosen to go back and cause events to happen differently in Kadish Tolesa...

..BUT...

...since those events within Kadish Tolesa "happened already" and the Age's timeline was already 'synched' with D'ni-- those moments cannot simply be "erased". They are a part of D'ni's history, too. Hence, the continued existence of the vault that contains the remains of Kadish.

So if Yeesha starts making changes to the past in another Age.. my guess is, we know what would happen: an alternate 'doppleganger' Age is generated, which would already be "linked and synched" to D'ni... akin to Gehn's now infamous "Age 37b", a nearly-identical 'duplicate Age' --- which is the Age where the empty vault exists.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:21 pm 
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HarveyMidnight wrote:
Isn't that the whole 'folklore' of the Grower

Oh, definitely. While I usually don't like time-travel stories, I really love this particular case. What little Cyan gave us doesn't reveal a lot, but if you don't mind extrapolating a bit it makes sense IMHO.

From a purely (in-lore) technical point of view, Linking through time isn't out of the question. It's unheard of, but Catherine, Yeesha and the Bahro proved there is much the D'ni never discovered. Then it all a matter of how you think time travel would work if it were possible, which is generally where fictions can be really unsatisfying.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
  • If you believe time is a single straight line, then saving Kadish like Yeesha did would cause a few paradoxes like Tweek said and wouldn't be satisfying.
  • If on the other hand, you believe multiple timelines can co-exist and branch into each other, then this plot is possible.

Both ways to handle time travel are incompatible, but both make sense in their own way depending on how the story is written. In Uru's case, the second idea (multiple timelines) seems to be the preferred one.
Not only that, but it also ties in nicely with how Books are said to Link to various leaves on the Great Tree of Possibilities, and how Ages and people might (or might not) get "reset" when making drastic changes to a Descriptive book, as mentioned in the BoA. For all we know, cloning someone is possible by abusing how the GToP works. Obviously this is something that Cyan never fully worked on and is not "canon" (did I mention I hate this word ?) but it fills in nicely with the gaps left in the story.

On a side note, where most fictions fail time travel is when they mix the two behaviors inconsistently. This results in nonsensical plots and paradoxes. IMHO this is the case in Dr Who, but then it seems they justified it with "timey winey", which is just a way to say "hey, it's magic, just enjoy the show and stop taking it too seriously". Which is definitely a way of thinking I can get behind ;)


From a story point of view though, it's a nice twist. Yeesha has always been craving for power, and at last she can finally do something the D'ni could never dream of - time travel ! With it she could solve all her family's problems, revive her brothers and she could prevent the Fall ! But she completely botches it: out of arrogance, she releases Kadish, who in turn kills Calam. Cold return to reality: power isn't good without wisdom.
After that, we can guess she realized her obsession for power made her unable to take good decisions and estranged her from her family, so she decided to never use her grower power anymore. It would also explain her behavior in Myst V: she was once again tempted by power with the Tablet, failed to use it and hates herself for being tempted again. It's bittersweet, which is why I like it so much.

But hey, in the end it's all just a story about Books magically linking you to other places. It's not like regular logic can always be applied everywhere :D


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:23 am 
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We already know...
[Reveal] Spoiler:
...from Myst V and Minkata that the bahro can control Time itself.

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