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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:35 am
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Location: Tennessee
** Update 05/09/07 **

Well, the creation story is over. See the last log below. But the meetings aren't over! We've started discussing the King books. Come meet us in the Students of D'ni Knowledge's Bevin, every Sunday night at 8 PM Cavern Time (10 PM EDT) for lots of good discussion! Don't forget to visit Our Website at www.sodk.org.

** Update 04/26/07 **

Finally posted the log for the 04/15 SoDK meeting. Two major updates with this one. First, we have ONE WEEK LEFT researching and discussing the creation story! Show up this Sunday, at 8 PM CT (10 PM EDT) in the Students of D'ni Knowledge's Bevin to see how the story ends, and discuss what that means about the D'ni.

Second, those who wish to dedicate themselves a bit more seriously to learning about the D'ni, please send me a KI mail, I am attempting to create a Guild of Historians, and we need initial members.

** Update 04/01/07 **

Well, the response to the SDK has been overwhelming! So overwhelming, that we're no longer able to meet in the city. Meetings are now held in the Students of D'ni Knowledge's Bevin, every Sunday night at 7 PM Cavern Time (that's 10 PM EDT). Come join us! This week, we'll be discussing more of the never-before seen translation of ancient D'ni religious texts.

In addition, Nick White has relaxed somewhat his restrictions on the posting of this information, so at the end of this thread you'll find the log of last week's meeting, for those who missed it.

** End Update **


Well, yesterday at 7 PM Cavern Time the Students of D'ni Knowledge met. this time we had our largest crowd yet, and some great stimulating discussion. Several people requested that I post the log of the meeting (which I have, though for some reason the very beginning got cut off. Which is fine, since it was mostly just me welcoming everyone, though I did explain a bit about the topic.) So, for those interested, here is the log of our meeting.

If you wish to join in, we meet at 7 PM Cavern Time (that's 10 PM EDT) every Sunday night in the Hall of Kings. Join us!

The opening topic of our meeting last night was "taygahn," a word that means "love" or "relationship", approximately. Nick White clued Heaven and Jazz, who clued me in to the fact that "taygahn" was the focus on the D'ni worship of Yahvo. Our discussion followed:

[spoiler](03/19 02:06:07) Thend: Interesting, would explqain a bit
(03/19 02:06:41) DocOlanA: So, I started doing a little digging into taygahn. First, "relationship" is a poor word. The Marriage notebook (which I think is still on the rooftop, it can also be found at www.dnidesk.com) reveals that taygahn not only described the relationship of a worshipper to Yahvo, but also the relationship between married couples.
(03/19 02:07:14) Jacquet: similar to "knowing" God in the Bible
(03/19 02:07:35) Thend: And like Nuns and such being 'married' to God
(03/19 02:07:43) DocOlanA: From the Marriage notebook: "Literally translated the word means "to love with the mind," and implied a deep understanding, respect, and most importantly unselfish love for one another."
(03/19 02:09:05) DocOlanA: There are two sources I found for taygahn in the Myst games. One was in Atrus's Prayer, which was released I believe with the Myst calendar. "khahgehm gahth b'taygahn khehzoo" (you [???] still to love for me). In this case Atrus is speaking to "The Maker," or Yahvo.
(03/19 02:09:47) DocOlanA: The other is actually in the image of Keta in Gehn's room in Riven. "Tahgahmehm, tsahn botaygahn shehm, b'fahsee". You know, always I will love you, to the greatest extent. In this case, she's describing her love for her husband, Gehn.
(03/19 02:09:56) DocOlanA: So apparently they were interchangable.
(03/19 02:10:34) Thend: Makes sense
(03/19 02:10:47) DocOlanA: The other interesting thing I discovered is that the root of taygahn, "Gahn," meant "Empire," as in the "trehgahn D'nee" (of the D'ni Empire).
(03/19 02:11:25) DocOlanA: I haven't been able to determine yet if that was an intentional foible of the language, or whether it was just coincidence (another word that it may be related to is "Gahro," meaning great, or mighty.)
(03/19 02:11:43) DocOlanA: And that's about all I know on the subject. So enough lecture, lets open it up to discussion.
(03/19 02:11:55) Jacquet: i have a theory
(03/19 02:12:04) DocOlanA: Yes?
(03/19 02:12:09) Jacquet: Yahvo correlates to Yahweh
(03/19 02:12:14) Thend nods his head
(03/19 02:12:37) Thend: The old testamentJewish term for 'God'
(03/19 02:12:41) Jacquet: yes
(03/19 02:12:57) DocOlanA: It's possible. Uru itself is Sumerian.
(03/19 02:13:04) DocOlanA: So it all ties into the Semetic languages.
(03/19 02:13:09) Jacquet: He's been around even longer than the D'ni
(03/19 02:13:58) DocOlanA: They show some similarities. A single supreme creator, definitely. It seems that Yahvo is a bit more focused on relationships, though, not so much on rules. Though that may be simply because we don't have a religious text to work from.
(03/19 02:14:39) Thend: So, Yahvo doesn't/didn't oerder people around or take n active role in the D'ni's history?
(03/19 02:15:08) Thend: Or manifest 'him'self in any way?
(03/19 02:15:27) Jacquet: you do have some writings from "prophets" though
(03/19 02:15:40) Jacquet: do they talk about rules
(03/19 02:15:42) DocOlanA: Right. Prophets, who were normally female.
(03/19 02:15:48) Thend: true, like 'channels' of Yahvo
(03/19 02:15:49) Jacquet: as should be
(03/19 02:15:56) DocOlanA: Pregnant D'ni also were considered to have a special relationship with Yahvo.
(03/19 02:16:05) Jacquet: makes sense
(03/19 02:16:45) Jacquet: what info do we have on Yahvo?
(03/19 02:16:58) Jacquet: any character traits?
(03/19 02:17:24) Thend: It seems,from the 3 Books (Book of Atrus, etc) that even Yahvo didn't have an active following or role in much of D'ni life
(03/19 02:17:40) DocOlanA: Well, we have that he created the great tree, theoretically. That he focused on a love/relationship, taygahn, which was the same word used between spouses (and, apparently, only spouses, at least it's implied that way by the marriage notebook.)
(03/19 02:18:04) Jacquet: didn't, it vary through the ages?
(03/19 02:18:07) DocOlanA: We know that some groups, like the Judges of Yahvo, felt that Yahvo was vengeful and somewhat xenophobic.
(03/19 02:18:24) Thend: Ah
(03/19 02:19:52) Thend: Along the lines of Jacquet, like, how did the D'ni 'see' Yahvo? I mean, when they pictured Yahvo? Any religious paitnings or descriptions
(03/19 02:20:02) DocOlanA: Unfortunately we don't have a good translation of the actual Regeltavok of Oorpah, so we don't have the original source material for a lot of this.
(03/19 02:20:03) Jacquet: i think the earlier D'ni were more devout
(03/19 02:20:40) Thend: Yahvo, to me, always seemed sort of nebulous, in contrast to the way the West, at least, see theri God(s)
(03/19 02:20:54) DocOlanA: Well we know Ri'neref was devout enough to leave his people, the Ronay behind, and write a new, harsher age. A lot of similarities between him and the Puritans.
(03/19 02:20:56) Jacquet: do you know if they if they believed in a heaven?
(03/19 02:21:09) Thend nods his head
(03/19 02:21:27) DocOlanA: Right. I don't really like to compare Yahvo directly to Christian terms, though that is how I was raised so I generally take most of my similes and types from there.
(03/19 02:21:42) DocOlanA: Thend, was that a nod to the D'ni believing in heaven? I don't know anything about that.
(03/19 02:22:04) Thend: Sorry, nod to you about the Puritan similarity
(03/19 02:22:09) Jacquet: that would be interesting research
(03/19 02:22:26) DocOlanA: I seem to recall that the D'ni believed in a perfect age, written by Yahvo, or something like that, but I can't remember the reference for the life of me.
(03/19 02:22:32) DocOlanA: I'll see if I can find it for next week.
(03/19 02:22:43) Thend: I agree Jacquet. You'd think info on a Supreme being of an entire culture would be more forthcoming
(03/19 02:22:44) Jacquet: cool, you do this every week?
(03/19 02:23:13) DocOlanA: Right. Every Sunday at 10 PM Eastern Time (which is currently 7 PM Cavern time, due to daylight savings.)
(03/19 02:23:14) Thend: I think I remember that too Doc, and hve had my own theories on it
(03/19 02:23:31) Jacquet: i heard The Broken Light wanting to do research on the subject, is he in your group?
(03/19 02:23:43) DocOlanA: Well I've bugged Nick about it. He says they have a copy of religious texts, they just haven't been released yet.
(03/19 02:24:00) Moon'snail:
(03/19 02:24:06) Moon'snail: 1
(03/19 02:24:21) DocOlanA: Yes. The Broken Light was actually one of the four who signed up with me at the original meeting.
(03/19 02:24:24) Thend: It's probably smart the DRC hasn't released them yet, I could imagine the effect of religion on the Cavern lol
(03/19 02:24:55) Jacquet: i think it would be cool, for historical cultural interest
(03/19 02:24:57) DocOlanA: Well, that's something to worry about. But we're not really here to practice D'ni religion. Just to learn about it. I firmly believe that Ri'neref's culture was a highly religious one, there's hints to that in all the earliest king notebooks.
(03/19 02:25:12) DocOlanA: It's impossible to understand a highly religious culture if you don't understand their religion.
(03/19 02:25:18) Jacquet: true
(03/19 02:25:37) Thend: True, but if taken too literally, could lead to some heated discussions, divisions, as the subject of rligion does
(03/19 02:25:41) DocOlanA: Like Egypt. You can sort of understand it based just on secular empire trends, but to really understand it, especially some of the better parts like Akenaten, you have to understand the religion.
(03/19 02:26:01) Migo: Most of the books in this room describe a religious culture that was important and yet struggled for acceptance in an odd way
(03/19 02:26:34) DocOlanA: True. I'm sure they're thinking of that. But we can't understand the D'ni until we understand their religion, and their early culture. The king books give us some insights into their early culture (though I'd love to find, like, a code of laws or something,) but we know practically nothing about the nuts and bolts of their religion.
(03/19 02:26:55) Jacquet: are there any religious structures in the city?
(03/19 02:26:56) Thend: It's strange, Migo, when considering a culture that lasted for so incredibly long, trying to seek out what bound them together so well and so securely
(03/19 02:27:10) Migo nods her head
(03/19 02:27:22) Jacquet: aside from living in a cave together?
(03/19 02:27:27) DocOlanA: Hence, the second purpose of the Students of D'ni Knowledge. Not only do we meet once a week and discuss what we've learned (and I hope people start jumping on that bandwagon, because I'm going to run out of opening lectures really soon,) but some of us have also taken it upon ourselves to start bugging the DRC to release more information.
(03/19 02:28:07) Migo: always through their Kings or leaders, or it just these books give me that impression?
(03/19 02:28:08) Thend: Of course, havng such long lifespans, their 10,000 years would be more like, 2 or 3 thousand years to us
(03/19 02:28:14) DocOlanA: I know I've brought it up with Nick, and I've heard of one or two others doing it. I'd really love a translation of the Regeltavok of Oorpah, which is the book that Ri'neref followed, and which first prophesied the Great King.
(03/19 02:28:21) Thend: lol Jacquet
(03/19 02:28:29) DocOlanA: Eventually, I want the DRC to excavate along the Great Zero line, and uncover the original Temple of Yahvo.
(03/19 02:28:50) Jacquet: that would be great!
(03/19 02:28:59) Jacquet: i bet it was beautiful
(03/19 02:30:16) DocOlanA: Ri'neref refused to build a palace until the Temple of Yahvo was built (of course, he refused to build a palace afterwards too, being a humble man, but that was the excuse he used to motivate people.)
(03/19 02:30:43) Jacquet: i love their archetecture
(03/19 02:30:48) Thend: So, maybe the D'ni scularized their religion, like some sort of extreme division of Church and State
(03/19 02:31:05) Migo: sounds probable
(03/19 02:31:09) Thend: Kept most of the manifestations of their devotion to specific places
(03/19 02:31:17) DocOlanA: It took 15 years of construction to build the Temple.
(03/19 02:31:35) DocOlanA: Well, possibly, but that just doesn't seem to mesh with a religion built mostly upon taygahn. A relationship is more an everyday thing.
(03/19 02:31:49) Thend: 15 years in nothig in D'ni, or even human, terms
(03/19 02:32:12) Jacquet: of course, thend, until we decifer everything we don't always know what we are looking at
(03/19 02:32:16) DocOlanA: I mean, no good husband loves his wife in certain places where it's appropriate.
(03/19 02:32:53) Jacquet: what we think are just designs might be religious symbols
(03/19 02:32:57) Thend: Okay Doc, then maybe religion was so second-nature to the D'ni, that they didn't require regular and profuse examples of it everywhere, like we have to drum it into our heads on the Surface
(03/19 02:33:22) Migo: good point both, Jacquet and Thend
(03/19 02:33:29) DocOlanA: Quite possible. It does seem somewhat of a more low-key, ever-present faith.
(03/19 02:33:45) DocOlanA: But that may simply be because most of what we know about D'ni is from the end of it, where it seems they made some of the same mistakes as the Ronay.
(03/19 02:34:10) Jacquet: and just about the leadership, not the commoners
(03/19 02:34:21) Migo: this symbol, for instance on the floor, could be a highly religious symbol
(03/19 02:34:31) Thend: I really like the idea of coming to this Cavern in order to become more humble
(03/19 02:34:35) Jacquet: the great tree?
(03/19 02:34:49) Migo: yes, perhaps
(03/19 02:35:00) Jacquet: with the spiral included
(03/19 02:35:04) DocOlanA: The great tree was, in a way, religious. Ri'neref believed the D'ni were stewards of the tree, set there by Yahvo to protect it, not for their own good, but for the good of the ages and their inhabitants.
(03/19 02:35:14) Thend: Good point Jacquet, and I have yet to get my mind around all the symbols we find around Migo
(03/19 02:35:37) Migo: symbols that are not in our way of thinking, religious images
(03/19 02:36:07) Migo: The lines and spaces, their architecture, all a whole of the spirit
(03/19 02:36:10) Thend: Yes, could have great meaning for D'ni, while being somewhat indeciferable to us due to lack of context
(03/19 02:36:11) Jacquet: do you have a site set up for the accumulation of religious info on the D'ni?
(03/19 02:36:32) Thend: That's a good idea Jacquet
(03/19 02:36:34) DocOlanA: I think one thing that's important, and something I constantly struggle with, is not to think of the D'ni or of Yahvo in too "American Protestant" of terms. That being how I was raised, it's my natural inclination. But it's a different culture, so even if there are similarities, they'll have different symbols, and different ways of expressing the same ideas.
(03/19 02:36:54) DocOlanA: That's a great idea, Jacquet. If only I knew someone dedicated to the Students of D'ni Knowledge who could also write good web-pages . . .
(03/19 02:37:10) Selv Urado: Uh, meditation group?
(03/19 02:37:23) Jacquet: lecture
(03/19 02:37:28) Migo: I have a very different religious background, and one must be careful in intrepeting religiosity
(03/19 02:37:30) Selv Urado: ah...sorry
(03/19 02:37:33) Selv Urado bows
(03/19 02:37:34) DocOlanA: More like a round table, really.
(03/19 02:37:47) DocOlanA: I know, I talk a lot, but it's not intended to be a lecture.
(03/19 02:37:57) Thend: Yes Doc, must draw the very simple kernel of religion to think from to see what is really there, rather than overlay the common Surface projection of religion these days
(03/19 02:37:58) Jacquet: having a place to discuss theories is fun
(03/19 02:38:30) Migo: Doc is standing at the center of the spiral....;-)
(03/19 02:38:42) DocOlanA: That's why I started the Students. To discuss theories, do research, and bug the heck out of Nick White until he gives us more religious translations.
(03/19 02:38:43) Migo: my favorite symbol :-)
(03/19 02:38:48) Jacquet: Christianity has been around for 2000 years but we are still discussing it and theorizing about it
(03/19 02:38:59) Thend is privvy to a variety of different spiritual beliefs and practices
(03/19 02:39:01) DocOlanA: Even more so for a religion that's been around for 10,000 years.
(03/19 02:39:30) Migo: And the bahro....? any conjecture on them?
(03/19 02:39:36) Jacquet: i think we are cool enough not to get hot headed
(03/19 02:39:59) Jacquet: sorta like abominable snowmen
(03/19 02:40:05) Migo: lol
(03/19 02:40:08) DocOlanA: So far, Migo? Only the conjecture that their slavery was against the principles of Yahvo, and Ri'neref. But since the Bahro came later, and we're mostly focused on the earliest D'ni culture, we don't really discuss them much.
(03/19 02:40:09) Zanari: lol
(03/19 02:40:19) Migo: ah
(03/19 02:40:22) DocOlanA: I think the people who joined the Great Tree are on that whole Bahro kick.
(03/19 02:40:29) DocOlanA: The expletive. :)
(03/19 02:40:39) Thend: Again Doc, I think acknowledging the D'ni religion as somewhat less than 10,000yrs old, due to their own perception of time, due to their lifespans, may reduce it to something more digestable,closer to the oldest religions that the Surface has
(03/19 02:40:42) Migo: really? hummm
(03/19 02:41:09) Jacquet: that is interesting
(03/19 02:41:14) DocOlanA: See, that's one thing I'm interested in. How would longer lifespans have influenced such things?
(03/19 02:41:42) Jacquet: how much contact would the ancient D'ni have had with the surface dwellers?
(03/19 02:41:59) Thend: Doc, it's been theorized that the Bhro may have had a longer spanning effect on and with the D'ni, and Linking, than just 'recent' history
(03/19 02:42:04) DocOlanA: I mean, on the one hand, longer generations mean less social change. On the other hand, I'm not sure that people are less likely to stray from strong religious principles just because it's one lifespan instead of many. There are many, many examples of strongly religious people mellowing out with age.
(03/19 02:42:33) Migo: cycles....
(03/19 02:42:41) Jacquet: ok, re bahro and linking
(03/19 02:42:41) DocOlanA: Thend - Theorized, yes. But there's no real evidence of it. Not even enough evidence for speculation, save for one reference that the Bahro built D'ni, which was almost certainly a metaphor from someone with a bigger axe to grind than Harriet Beecher Stowe.
(03/19 02:42:59) Jacquet: most things we discover start in nature
(03/19 02:43:16) Jacquet: and then we copy them technologically
(03/19 02:43:21) DocOlanA: There's no evidence that the Bahro have been around since the beginning. Such a thing would go against the principles Ri'neref seemed to espouse. One of his problems with the Ronay was that they were not being stewards of the ages, but rather masters.
(03/19 02:43:53) Thend: I just consider the probability due to the fact that Linking appears to be a Bharo native ability, which might suggest the D'ni had to artificially manufacture the same thing
(03/19 02:43:59) DocOlanA: The first reference I can find to Bahro is Shomat, and even that may well not be the Bahro as we know them, as Bahro is also a term given to generic outsiders, no matter what their age of origin.
(03/19 02:44:10) Thend: Which suggests that one could have influenced the otherr
(03/19 02:44:44) Jacquet: is anyone recording a log of this?
(03/19 02:44:45) DocOlanA: It's a possibility. It's also a possibility that linking is an inherent part of the universe. The D'ni did it through technology, while the Bahro do it inherently.
(03/19 02:44:49) DocOlanA: I have a log running.
(03/19 02:45:06) Jacquet: will you post it, please?
(03/19 02:45:18) Jacquet: this is very interesting
(03/19 02:45:19) DocOlanA: Just like no matter how many alien races you get, each race will always have some kind of drink called a gin and tonic. :)
(03/19 02:45:28) Jacquet: lol
(03/19 02:45:42) DocOlanA: Oh, thank Yahvo somebody got that reference. :)
(03/19 02:46:04) magic mark: whats good peoples
(03/19 02:46:13) Migo: Shorah magic mark
(03/19 02:46:20) DocOlanA: Shorah Magic Mark.
(03/19 02:46:23) Zanari: what site will it be posted on?
(03/19 02:46:37) Thend: True. One last thing on the Bhro 'connection', perhaps, as it seems outside D'ni beliefs, no matter how 'open-minded' (xenophobic) that the Bahro participation or influence in things may have been written out of D'ni history. 'The victors write the history', etc
(03/19 02:46:43) DocOlanA: I'll probably post it somewhere on the Uru Obsession forums, at least until we get a forum of our own.
(03/19 02:46:49) DocOlanA: Although the great turnout tonight gives me hope.
(03/19 02:47:01) Thend: hello mark
(03/19 02:47:05) Jacquet: we are making work for you, aren't we\
(03/19 02:47:11) magic mark wonders wat everybody is looking at
(03/19 02:47:18) magic mark: hiya
(03/19 02:47:24) magic mark: jus chillen
(03/19 02:47:24) DocOlanA: Thend - That is possible. But again, it just seems to me to go against what Ri'neref believed in. It woudl be a little silly for him to leave the Ronay because they were abusing their power over the ages, only to bring along enslaved bahro.
(03/19 02:47:24) Jacquet: we are discussing Yahvo
(03/19 02:47:36) Thend: mark, this is a D'ni religion discussion
(03/19 02:47:53) DocOlanA: From the Ri'neref journal:
(03/19 02:47:55) magic mark: y......
(03/19 02:48:10) Jacquet: who says they came as slaves originally?
(03/19 02:48:25) Jacquet: they have the power to link
(03/19 02:48:25) magic mark: is there not nutin left to explore
(03/19 02:48:34) DocOlanA: "Around 73 BE, Ri'neref was asked by the Grand Master to write a descriptive Book to a questionable Age at least in the eyes of Ri'neref. He perceived the Age being used to house an uncivilized race that could be used for the purposes of the Ronay."
(03/19 02:48:52) DocOlanA: Because Ri'neref refused to write that age, he was booted from the Guild of Writers, precipitating his writing of the Book of D'ni.
(03/19 02:48:54) Thend: The Bahro may not have been enslaved at that point, only later, by 'bad' men, and then summarily written out and their original purpose/contribution forgotten or twisted
(03/19 02:49:04) DocOlanA: That's a possibility, I suppose.
(03/19 02:49:22) DocOlanA: But there would have had to be more to the story, to get Ri'neref to take the Bahro away from their home age.
(03/19 02:49:41) Jacquet: they don't seem to talk though, so they could not have had much of an effect on the religion
(03/19 02:49:44) magic mark: yep interesting
(03/19 02:49:56) Thend: I take your point though Doc. It doesn't help that the term 'Bahro' seemed to be used so interchangebly with 'undesirable' races, or so we now perceive
(03/19 02:50:00) DocOlanA: In this case, short lifespan works against them. It's hard to make something vanish from the public mind when the generations are so long.
(03/19 02:50:09) magic mark: but im kinda lost but i guess il catch up later
(03/19 02:50:26) Thend: heh, read '1984' Doc lol
(03/19 02:50:42) DocOlanA: I believe the Terahnee used the term Bahro to mean any of the enslaved otherworlders.
(03/19 02:50:51) Migo: They were easy to 'forget'....
(03/19 02:51:04) DocOlanA: Heh. 1984 is a lovely novel, but rather heavy-handed.
(03/19 02:51:12) Jacquet: origin of "boogeyman"?
(03/19 02:51:25) Jacquet: they dissappear
(03/19 02:51:29) DocOlanA: An intelligent totalitarian society would never be so blatant. There are far easier ways to utterly control a populace. But now we're getting away from the subject at hand.
(03/19 02:51:45) Thend nods his head
(03/19 02:51:56) Migo: :-)
(03/19 02:52:10) DocOlanA: That would actually be a good request for Nick. What the earliest references are to otherworlders in D'ni, bahro or otherwise.
(03/19 02:52:20) Zanari: thank you for the lesson Doc I will have to catch the rest of it online. Surface calls. Night all
(03/19 02:52:28) DocOlanA: Shorah, Zanari.
(03/19 02:52:30) Thend: Seeya Zanari
(03/19 02:52:32) Jazz: Noted
(03/19 02:52:35) Migo: nite Zanari
(03/19 02:52:48) Jacquet: thanks
(03/19 02:53:20) DocOlanA: There's just so many gaps to be filled with speculation. It's like the pre-Napoleonic days of Egyptology.
(03/19 02:53:26) DocOlanA: At least we understand some of the language.
(03/19 02:53:30) Jacquet: stories of ghosts, demons, etc., are always a counterpoint to gods
(03/19 02:53:36) Thend: Hieroglyphs and all
(03/19 02:53:43) Migo: There is so much to learn
(03/19 02:54:01) DocOlanA: Well, D'ni had its share of splinter relgions and beliefs, but we haven't really focused on them because they didn't show up for generations.
(03/19 02:54:05) Jacquet: it will be more fun to learn a little at a time
(03/19 02:54:22) DocOlanA: Again, we're mostly focusing on the earliest D'ni. Because I feel we have to understand the beginning to understand the end.
(03/19 02:54:29) Jacquet: true
(03/19 02:54:30) Thend: Yes Jacquet, it's heavy stuff
(03/19 02:55:34) DocOlanA: Heh. Well, with the current pace ot the DRC translators, I don't think we'll suffer from information overflow anytime soon.
(03/19 02:55:41) DocOlanA: How long has it been since we got a new notebook?
(03/19 02:55:56) Jacquet: how far back do the oldest sources go?
(03/19 02:56:00) Migo: Ha, Sharper's entry count? lol
(03/19 02:56:27) Thend: Doc, I think we have to see if there are any other sources than Nick. He seems otherwise assigned these days and there must be someone translating still
(03/19 02:56:33) DocOlanA: There WAS a journal of Ri'neref, but it's no longer in the game. You can still read it at www.dnidesk.com though, under Uru Prime journals.
(03/19 02:56:43) DocOlanA: I'd love to, Thend. But Nick remains the only DRC member I've ever met.
(03/19 02:56:49) Thend wonders what Doc means by 'game'
(03/19 02:57:01) DocOlanA: Sorry. Using my street slang.
(03/19 02:57:04) Jacquet: life is a game
(03/19 02:57:11) Thend: lol
(03/19 02:57:11) DocOlanA: Like, in the game. Get your game on. Get your head in the game.
(03/19 02:57:44) DocOlanA is deleting the last few lines from the log. As Thend says, the victors write the histories.
(03/19 02:57:50) DocOlanA grins
(03/19 02:57:51) Thend: It may be you linked in after Doc and it's a bug Nate
(03/19 02:57:58) Jacquet: lol
(03/19 02:58:19) Thend snickers at Doc's comment
(03/19 02:58:44) Migo wonders what Thend means by bug ;-)
(03/19 02:58:58) Jacquet: i think it would be cool if we could find some diaries from ordinary D'ni
(03/19 02:59:03) Thend was talking 'street' also
(03/19 02:59:04) DocOlanA: He meant "strange, unexplained happening, and curse Yeesha!"
(03/19 02:59:07) Migo: lol
(03/19 02:59:21) Migo ducks the lightening bolts
(03/19 02:59:33) Thend starts to laugh
(03/19 02:59:34) Migo leans left
(03/19 02:59:38) DocOlanA: That would be cool. Although I think the King journals are mostly compiled from original D'ni texts.
(03/19 02:59:40) Migo leans right
(03/19 03:00:01) Thend: I agree Jacquet
(03/19 03:00:12) Jacquet: yeah, but they are so official, don't tell us much about how regular people thought about Yahvo
(03/19 03:00:18) DocOlanA: In fact I'm pretty sure all the journals are complied from the D'ni texts.
(03/19 03:00:29) Migo: Wouldn't it be great if an exporer found something like that?
(03/19 03:00:30) DocOlanA: True.
(03/19 03:00:47) Jacquet: tell the archaeologists to start digging
(03/19 03:01:16) DocOlanA: If nothing else, we might find another Zandi spiral.
(03/19 03:01:18) Thend: I think, however hesistantly, that Yeesha as a source may shed some light, considering her 'spiritual' leanings
(03/19 03:01:27) Migo: :-)
(03/19 03:01:29) Jacquet: I know they did some plays, did they ever do any about Yahvo?
(03/19 03:01:44) Thend: (Zandi spiral?)
(03/19 03:01:56) Jacquet: yeah, but is her perception of reality something to be truested?
(03/19 03:02:01) DocOlanA: Thend, I completely agree. And I wish she'd stop her whole cryptic egomaniac approach and actually sit down for a chat. I'd probably end up following her anywhere, if she just told us why.
(03/19 03:02:22) Thend: no, no, no it isn't Jacquet. Hence, 'hesitantly' lol
(03/19 03:02:36) DocOlanA: But I don't do rat in a maze very well (hence my formation of a group to study ancient D'ni, and hopefully motivate the DRC to give us more info.)
(03/19 03:02:54) Thend: Very logical Doc, yes
(03/19 03:03:41) DocOlanA: We're in a situation where it's been prophesied that destruction is coming. There's lots of back-alley dealings behind closed doors. Knowledge, in the cavern, is the true power.
(03/19 03:03:51) Thend nods his head
(03/19 03:04:22) DocOlanA: Anyways, the discussion is getting random. So, if no one has any further topics to discuss . . .
(03/19 03:04:25) Thend: Unfortunately, many 'players' have been/are not forthcoming in their knowledge and findings
(03/19 03:04:51) Migo: yup, ....it begins...
(03/19 03:04:53) Thend: I think we all do, but they can wait til next meeting ;)
(03/19 03:04:58) Jacquet: info from people is not always true
(03/19 03:05:00) DocOlanA: Okay then.
(03/19 03:05:04) DocOlanA: Just one thing in closing.
(03/19 03:05:08) Jacquet: i prefer texts
(03/19 03:05:17) Migo: thankks Doc
(03/19 03:05:33) Thend: Thanks Doc, and everyione else, this has been very interesting
(03/19 03:05:40) Migo nods her head
(03/19 03:05:43) Jacquet: yup
(03/19 03:06:03) Migo: one thing? Doc?
(03/19 03:06:05) DocOlanA: This is our cavern. This is our story. It's not the DRC's, it's not Yeesha's, it's not Sharper's, it's not Cyan. It heartens me to see so many people joining together here for a discussion, and an agenda. I firmly believe that, if we want it to, we can shape the future of the cavern. I also believe that if we do not, the DRC will go bankrupt again like it has before, and the cavern may be closed forever.
(03/19 03:06:30) Thend heartily agrees with Doc's sentiments
(03/19 03:06:36) Jacquet: i don't think that will happen
(03/19 03:06:47) Jacquet: the word is spreading
(03/19 03:06:54) DocOlanA: This may not be your cause. The Students of D'ni Knowledge may not be the group you want to join. But if this entertained you, or made you think for an hour on Sunday night, then either join us, or else find yoru own group. Don't let this Cavern devolve into Yeesha's followers, and the DRC's followers.
(03/19 03:07:02) DocOlanA: Be your own faction. Be your own plot. Be your own story.
(03/19 03:07:03) Thend: Jacquet, never say never. A lesson we all learned the first time around. We must be diligent
(03/19 03:07:06) DocOlanA: There, I've ranted, and I've done.
(03/19 03:07:28) DocOlanA: I'll be here next Sunday, same Doc-Time, same Doc-Channel, but NEVER Doc-Knee.
(03/19 03:07:30) DocOlanA: :)
(03/19 03:07:30) Thend thanks you very much![/spoiler]

And for those of you who are interested, the log of the very first Students of D'ni Knowledge meeting. A word of explanation of this - We were really bored one Sunday night. I suggested that I could always go to the Hall of Kings and soapbox. I was then dared to do so. So the opening of this log is, well . . . very sermon-like. As a joke. But it quickly turned into a serious discussion, which was awesome. It sort of reveals the proto-discussion that turned into the Students of D'ni Knowledge.

[spoiler](02/26 03:56:50) cristian: hey just shut your mouth!
(02/26 03:56:58) DocOlanA: What makes D'ni different than Tehranee? Is it the people? No. For the D'ni and the Ronay were one, once.
(02/26 03:57:14) DocOlanA: It was not their genetics. It was their spirit. For Ri'neref's spirituality ignited in his people.
(02/26 03:57:19) Waldorf: Listen! The Truth echos throughout the Cavern!
(02/26 03:57:57) cristian: oh i really hate this lag
(02/26 03:57:58) DocOlanA: Throughout these books it is the same.
(02/26 03:58:16) DocOlanA: In every single book, every journal transcribed by the DRC, one thing is clear.
(02/26 03:58:38) DocOlanA: Spirituality, the quest for truth, the quest for righteousness, the quest for God, was at the core of every conflict, every achievement of these people.
(02/26 03:59:02) DocOlanA: It was their faith in Yahvo that brought them here. It was their faith in Yahvo that governed their lives.
(02/26 03:59:29) DocOlanA: Have you read the journals on D'ni maturity? D'ni marriage? Every aspect of their lives were governed by their faith.
(02/26 03:59:53) John Rockefeller: Then how did D'ni fall? A lack of faith?
(02/26 04:00:04) DocOlanA: You may call Yahvo what you will. God, the universe, destiny, even righteousness, it does not matter. Whatever Yahvo is, the principles of Yahvo were at the core of everything they did.
(02/26 04:00:38) DocOlanA: The fall of D'ni came about when the D'ni had become so much like the Ronay, that it was impossible to distinguish them. they had forgotten Yahvo's plan, even while claiming to follow him.
(02/26 04:01:08) Jan Stepmeir: there is no Yahvo
(02/26 04:01:09) Waldorf: Then surely they would place Yahvo at teh center of their City...
(02/26 04:01:12) DocOlanA: But to the original D'ni, the original travellers to the cavern, Yahvo was everything. And when the Great Zero was established, the Temple of Yahvo was placed on a direct line of the Great Zero, in the place of greatest significance.
(02/26 04:01:15) Jan Stepmeir: praise science
(02/26 04:01:32) cristian: why dni falls?
(02/26 04:01:38) DocOlanA: Whether we believe in Yahvo or not is immaterial. The D'ni believed. They believed so deeply, that they built their entire culture around him.
(02/26 04:01:58) DocOlanA: Why then, has there been no attempt to excavate the Temple of Yahvo, along the line of the Great Zero? Why then is there no mention of this great building?
(02/26 04:02:12) Waldorf: Perhaps that faith was the catalyst for their downfall...
(02/26 04:02:43) John Rockefeller: Perhaps within the Temple of Yahvo an incredible secret was found by the DRC and surpressed
(02/26 04:02:48) DocOlanA: We claim to be the called. Chosen to follow in the footsteps of the D'ni. And yet, we have done nothing to explore the single most important aspect of their existance. Their faith.
(02/26 04:03:14) Jan Stepmeir: that's debatable
(02/26 04:03:16) John Rockefeller: I will explore, with you.
(02/26 04:03:24) John Rockefeller: What do you suggest?
(02/26 04:03:30) Jan Stepmeir: they believed in tons of things
(02/26 04:03:33) DocOlanA: How can we understand the D'ni if we see only their buildings? To understand the D'ni, to understand the reasons why they were, and the reasons why they fell, we must look to their faith. To Yahvo.
(02/26 04:03:52) John Rockefeller: The great tree?
(02/26 04:04:00) John Rockefeller: We have no means to get there..
(02/26 04:04:02) Waldorf: The Great Tree...
(02/26 04:04:13) bradford: aye
(02/26 04:04:32) Musicteachersheff: surely there must be a book of Yahvo somewhere?
(02/26 04:04:39) DocOlanA: The Great Tree was created by Yahvo, so say the earliest D'ni writings. And Ri'neref taught his people that they were not masters of the tree, but its stewards. Its caretakers.
(02/26 04:04:44) Jan Stepmeir: that's like saying that in order to understand the Romans we must understand Zeus...
(02/26 04:04:49) John Rockefeller: Perhaps the Bahro can help us? They have the ability to travel
(02/26 04:05:03) Waldorf: Zeus was not a Roman god
(02/26 04:05:12) Musicteachersheff: jupier then
(02/26 04:05:20) Jan Stepmeir: ummm yes he was Waldorf
(02/26 04:05:24) Waldorf: or maybe it was Zeua =p
(02/26 04:05:25) DocOlanA: And the Romans did not build their culture around Zeus. The D'ni, however, did build their culture around Yahvo.
(02/26 04:05:29) Waldorf: Zeus
(02/26 04:05:31) Jan Stepmeir: Jupiter was the Greeks
(02/26 04:05:39) Waldorf: how easily you're swayed
(02/26 04:05:43) Lelando: e
(02/26 04:05:53) DocOlanA: It would be like trying to understand the Sumerians without understanding Ea, or the Egyptians without understanding the principles of ma'at. It is not possible.
(02/26 04:06:06) Jan Stepmeir: yes it is
(02/26 04:06:17) Jan Stepmeir: and the Egyptians were the Pharohs
(02/26 04:06:20) John Rockefeller: I am not swayed, but I am interested in experiencing what it is to live in this ancient city and be part of this amazing expedition, no matter what it entails. I hate being confined, I want to explore.
(02/26 04:06:24) Jan Stepmeir: understand the Pharohs
(02/26 04:07:03) DocOlanA: How can you understand the Pharoahs without understanding their gods? It was their gods that allowed the Pharohs to rule.
(02/26 04:07:06) John Rockefeller: I head reports that rocks were falling from the ceiling the other day... Perhaps a new path has opened?
(02/26 04:07:29) John Rockefeller: I thought it was the go'ould ;)
(02/26 04:07:34) DocOlanA: When Akhenaten sought to drive Egypt away from their gods, the Priest of Ra stopped him. The relationship between Pharoah and God was at the heart of the Egyptian culture. If you do not understand that, you do not understand Egypt.
(02/26 04:07:44) Jan Stepmeir: no, the Pharohs and their deeds, not their faith will allow you to understand them
(02/26 04:08:03) DocOlanA: And if you do not understand Yahvo, you do not understand the D'ni. And we do not understand Yahvo.
(02/26 04:08:30) Musicteachersheff: Never even heard of Yahvo till tonight :)
(02/26 04:08:31) DocOlanA: We see glimpses of him. We see glimpses through D'ni culture, their ideas on maturity, on marriage, on the structure of their society. But surely there is some teachings on Yahvo available.
(02/26 04:08:49) John Rockefeller: Well then we must tread carefully. If we are to attain the knowledge of D'ni, the true knowledge, then we must not fall to the same failures that brought down their civilization.
(02/26 04:08:58) DocOlanA: Why is this not a focus for the DRC? Perhaps they are content with the buildings, but we are the called, and as the called, we must try to understand the people.
(02/26 04:09:01) Waldorf: Science fears what it cannot explain, perhaps in this respect the DRC fears what it cannot define
(02/26 04:09:31) DocOlanA: Again, let me reiterate. Whether Yahvo is real or not is immaterial. The D'ni believed in him, and built their culture around him.
(02/26 04:09:33) Musicteachersheff: for a culture so strongly seated in books I cannot believe they didn't have a book of their faith/yahvo...do you thik think the DRC found it and wil not show it to us?
(02/26 04:09:40) DocOlanA: Thus, to understand the D'ni, we must understand Yahvo.
(02/26 04:09:41) John Rockefeller: That was the problem the last time we were all down here. Yeesha was showing us a spiritual path; One the DRC could not explain nor guarantee.
(02/26 04:10:03) DocOlanA: But Yeesha does not show us the path of Yahvo. Yeesha shows us her own path.
(02/26 04:10:08) John Rockefeller: I have long suspected the DRC of hiding their true intentions. I believe they are after the power of the D'ni.
(02/26 04:10:11) Waldorf: Perhaps the DRC lacks the ability to comprehend the spiritual... lacks the ability to venture down different paths, different journeys...
(02/26 04:10:19) Jan Stepmeir: wrong, with all the religions they went through you don't need to understand a religion to understand them
(02/26 04:10:32) John Rockefeller: Jan, what would you suggest?
(02/26 04:10:38) DocOlanA: I do not believe the DRC has a conspiracy to keep Yahvo from us. I believe they are simply spiritually ignorant, as so many purely scientific ventures are.
(02/26 04:10:53) John Rockefeller: I will maintain my suspicions..
(02/26 04:10:54) Jan Stepmeir: Historical actions are all that matter
(02/26 04:11:05) DocOlanA: Thus, I believe that if enough of us make our desires known, then we may prompt them to translate a book of Yahvo. We may even encourage them to excavate the temple of Yahvo itself.
(02/26 04:11:27) Waldorf: Historical actions like the birth and lives of messianic figures?
(02/26 04:11:41) John Rockefeller: But how? We haven't seen DRC in the cavern for days and when they are here it is only a minute before they are gone.
(02/26 04:12:14) DocOlanA: You think they are not aware of what goes on? Right now I see many of you here, in this room, listening to me.
(02/26 04:12:36) Jan Stepmeir: I'm disagreeing with you
(02/26 04:12:42) DocOlanA: If more listen to me, and listen to you, and then start speaking thsmelves, they will listen.
(02/26 04:13:06) DocOlanA: Remember, the DRC listened when many gathered together to protest the closing of the DRC forums. This may be a more difficult battle, but I believe it is just as achievable.
(02/26 04:13:29) John Rockefeller: I will help you
(02/26 04:13:44) Jan Stepmeir: it's futile, we don't need to know about Yahvo, and we probably never will
(02/26 04:13:46) Waldorf: How can we help?
(02/26 04:14:08) Musicteachersheff: jan why are you so against learning of the D'ni faith?
(02/26 04:14:11) DocOlanA: Speak about it. There are still logs of the original journal written about Ri'neref online, even though that journal is not present here.
(02/26 04:14:29) DocOlanA: Read them. Learn from them. Read the first few books in this hall, and see how Yahvo dominated the lives of the early D'ni.
(02/26 04:14:56) Jan Stepmeir: Because religion is the enslaving of the masses
(02/26 04:15:05) DocOlanA: Then tell others.
(02/26 04:15:27) DocOlanA: Religion is the opiate of the masses, Jan. Marx said that. But that doesn't change the fact that everybody has one.
(02/26 04:15:31) John Rockefeller: Jan... Why are you so against learning more of the D'ni? Is that not against the entire reason we're all down here?
(02/26 04:15:31) Musicteachersheff: Enslaving or joining? I think religion gives people a common cause to work for
(02/26 04:15:38) Waldorf: Are you sure religion isn't the liberation of the soul?
(02/26 04:16:00) Jan Stepmeir: there's only so much worth learning
(02/26 04:16:19) Brakelatabasaasta: Certainly not, Waldorf. A religion can be many other ridiculous things.
(02/26 04:16:26) John Rockefeller: I'm sure it's not :) I personally dislike religion even though I am a very spiritual person... Religion to me is simply man's attempt to capture the essence of a supreme being or spirit and always leads to chaos in the end..
(02/26 04:16:37) DocOlanA: Everything is worth learning. And as the called, the D'ni are worth learning more than most.
(02/26 04:16:44) John Rockefeller: I agree Doc.
(02/26 04:16:45) Waldorf: Science by nature creates definition, limits, boundaries; spirituality frees the mind to expand wisdom beyond definition and limiting conventions of language
(02/26 04:16:53) Landwynn: Don't you think Jan, that by learning about a peoples beliefs, and the Gods they created, you learn about their culture?
(02/26 04:16:53) DocOlanA: Religion is the framework by which man understands the incomprehensible.
(02/26 04:17:01) DocOlanA: It is always flawed, but sadly necessary.
(02/26 04:17:28) DocOlanA: But again, whether you believe in Yahvo or not is immaterial. The D'ni did, and to understand the first D'ni, we must understand Him as well.
(02/26 04:17:35) Landwynn: you learn not what they were self-aware enough to tell you, but their deep hidden fears?
(02/26 04:17:39) Jan Stepmeir: I'd argue no it's not, a rational mind is better at understanding the incomprehensible
(02/26 04:17:56) DocOlanA: If you wish to help, I will do this. It is Sunday Night.
(02/26 04:18:12) Brakelatabasaasta: But obviously, the D'ni did not have that rational mind, Jan.
(02/26 04:18:19) Waldorf: That statement assumes that the spiritual mind is inherently irrational
(02/26 04:18:20) John Rockefeller: The problem with either of them is that they can only guess based off of previous knowledge.
(02/26 04:18:27) Musicteachersheff: when trying to understand any culture you need to explore all areas of it, art, music, politics, social castes, and yes, faith as well...I don't think yahvo is the end all be all of understanding the D'ni but it is an important aspect to be studied to be sure
(02/26 04:18:28) DocOlanA: Next Sunday, at 8 PM cavern time, I will be here again, and speak further on this. And further, if any of you learn things of the D'ni, or have insights and wish to share, I encourage you to be there as well.
(02/26 04:18:29) John Rockefeller: I believe it is, Waldorf
(02/26 04:18:44) John Rockefeller: I will be here, as well.
(02/26 04:18:47) DocOlanA: Until the Temple of Yahvo is opened by the DRC, we can hold meetings to discuss and learn about D'ni spirituality here, in the Hall of Kings.
(02/26 04:19:07) Musicteachersheff: ooc: what is Cavern time on the surface? which time zone
(02/26 04:19:15) John Rockefeller: Sounds good to me.
(02/26 04:19:23) DocOlanA: That's 8 PM MST. 10 PM EST.
(02/26 04:19:24) Jan Stepmeir: fine talk about D'ni spirituality but don't fall into the trap of believing it
(02/26 04:19:36) DocOlanA: Why not? It's just as valid as any other faith.
(02/26 04:19:40) D'niel points
(02/26 04:19:43) Landwynn: What are you so afraid of Jan?
(02/26 04:19:57) John Rockefeller: Perhaps the DRC is recruiting, Jan
(02/26 04:20:02) Musicteachersheff: Lol probably more valid than some...cough...scientology...cough
(02/26 04:20:11) charmling: Lol
(02/26 04:20:11) DocOlanA: Please. While we may disagree, lets not mock.
(02/26 04:20:12) D'niel points
(02/26 04:20:17) Waldorf: Hey don't knock MAverick...
(02/26 04:20:29) Jan Stepmeir: what in that sentence says I'm fearful of something?
(02/26 04:20:30) John Rockefeller: OK, OK.. Sorry Jan :) Meant as a joke
(02/26 04:20:51) Jan Stepmeir: I have my own disagreements with the DRC
(02/26 04:21:01) DocOlanA: This is not a cult, nor is it a cabal. We are, after all, explorers, scientists of D'ni. And if we ridicule any point of view, aren't we just as bad?
(02/26 04:21:22) Landwynn: It sounds like you are against anyone having a religious faith, not just that you may not choose to have one
(02/26 04:21:45) Jan Stepmeir: I'm against anything that will muddle your minds
(02/26 04:21:56) DocOlanA: Everyone has a religious faith. That faith may or may not include anything divine or spiritual.
(02/26 04:22:12) Landwynn: Nd you are qualified to make those judgements for others, Jan?
(02/26 04:22:16) Jan Stepmeir: I have no religious faith, thank you
(02/26 04:22:21) Waldorf: Some socieities had different non-religious faiths, like the Soviet Union
(02/26 04:22:25) Landwynn: sounds like fear t o me
(02/26 04:22:32) Cylon Nate: not everyone..
(02/26 04:22:33) DocOlanA: You do not believe in the spiritual, Jan. But that requires just as much faith as believing.
(02/26 04:22:41) Cylon Nate: i dont have any religious affiliations
(02/26 04:22:44) AKA: hi broken light
(02/26 04:22:53) DocOlanA: That is your religion. It is a perfectly valid religion. But it is a religion nontheless, because science does not support it.
(02/26 04:23:04) John Rockefeller: Me neither... I tend to believe in part destiny part chance.
(02/26 04:23:05) Waldorf: The Cult of the Leader, Leninist-Marxism, maxims on how and indivdual must organize their lives to be productive in society
(02/26 04:23:13) DocOlanA: We have yet to find the facts to support any religion. All are ultimately based on faith.
(02/26 04:23:18) Grieyls: Meh
(02/26 04:23:25) D'niel does a dance
(02/26 04:23:48) Landwynn: you need not, Jan, but to insist that others who choose otherwise are "muddled" is ...hm...
(02/26 04:23:56) DocOlanA: So. I'm running out of steam and I'll step down from the spiral, and allow someone else to speak.
(02/26 04:24:08) John Rockefeller: I think we should keep our eyes on the task at hand... Not whether or not Yahvo is real, or if religions have value in society as a whole, but on the D'ni's belief in Yahvo and their society's culture as a result.
(02/26 04:24:10) Waldorf: Perhaps, as some have contended, the D'ni faith was a political means to an end...
(02/26 04:24:23) Jan Stepmeir: I recognize that you choose to muddle your mind Landwynn
(02/26 04:24:36) DocOlanA: My only request, both for this meeting and future sunday meetings, are this - if you stand up to speak, please speak seriously. I have no doubt many will make light of these discussions. While good humor is wonderful, lets not venture into mocking the subject.
(02/26 04:24:53) Landwynn: You have no knowledge of my beliefs, Jan, as you have not inquired
(02/26 04:24:54) The Broken Light bows
(02/26 04:25:04) DocOlanA: Wow. A lot of people arrived while I was talking. That's awesome!
(02/26 04:25:12) John Rockefeller: Why are we making this personal?
(02/26 04:25:13) Jan Stepmeir: I don't need knowledge of your beliefs
(02/26 04:25:23) From Musicteachersheff: Good job starting something :)
(02/26 04:25:24) Brakelatabasaasta: Just because we learn something doesn't mean that we believe it, Jan. I learned Algebra and Calculus in High School, but I never believed it.
(02/26 04:25:32) Landwynn: Yet, you feel qualified to judge them?
(02/26 04:25:36) The Broken Light: Not believe Calculus?
(02/26 04:25:42) The Broken Light: Calculus is MY religion.
(02/26 04:25:43) Landwynn: And me?
(02/26 04:25:59) Jan Stepmeir: you don't need to believe in calculus for it to be true
(02/26 04:26:07) The Broken Light: True
(02/26 04:26:22) The Broken Light: Though we should compare Mathematics and religion
(02/26 04:26:23) To Musicteachersheff: Thanks. Sometimes all you need is a crazy man to start talking :)
(02/26 04:26:24) Brakelatabasaasta: So you're saying that whether or not I believe in a god... that god is true?
(02/26 04:26:29) The Broken Light: Math is universal truth
(02/26 04:26:39) Landwynn: And some would say, that you do not need to believe in God for him to be real
(02/26 04:26:41) The Broken Light: Oh no, that's never true.
(02/26 04:26:44) Waldorf: Math is created by man
(02/26 04:26:48) Jan Stepmeir: and Landwynn, you try living your life without judging things and well see how far you get
(02/26 04:26:48) Brakelatabasaasta: Well, I choose to disregard that truth.
(02/26 04:26:57) Waldorf: therefore Man creates Truth
(02/26 04:27:12) DocOlanA: Not necessarily Brake. But whether God is true or isn't true is in no way modified by your belief.
(02/26 04:27:13) John Rockefeller: Not to mention quantum physics (which the D'ni technology is loosely based) implies that 1 can equal 0.
(02/26 04:27:14) Landwynn: i've done fine so far, Jan
(02/26 04:27:20) The Broken Light: Math is observed in such a way that it is infallable, although it is "constructed" by Man
(02/26 04:27:20) Jan Stepmeir: ha
(02/26 04:27:24) Waldorf: But was God created by Man?
(02/26 04:27:34) Brakelatabasaasta: Yes.
(02/26 04:27:37) DocOlanA: And disregarding the truth is your prerogative, though I would caution you to look through history for examples of what generally happens when people disregard the truth.
(02/26 04:27:38) The Broken Light: The notion of a God was created by the inherent desires of man
(02/26 04:27:51) Jan Stepmeir: Landwynn, everyone judges, and to say otherwise is a lie
(02/26 04:28:03) John Rockefeller: Jan you are making a fool of yourself... you are not going to change anyone's mind. That's the power of faith.
(02/26 04:28:13) The Broken Light: Religion keeps some people going, but a lot of people turn elsewhere.
(02/26 04:28:22) Waldorf: or it's greatest pitfall
(02/26 04:28:24) DocOlanA: John, if I may quote you, lets focus on the D'ni, not ourselves.
(02/26 04:28:27) Landwynn: And while I may not believe in God myself, I wil absolutely defend another's right to believe, I do not choose to put myself above anyone else based on their beliefs, or lack of them
(02/26 04:28:31) Jan Stepmeir: John, make sense
(02/26 04:28:36) The Broken Light: Amen, Landwynn.
(02/26 04:28:50) DocOlanA: Personally, I have no faith in Yahvo. But I understand that the D'ni believed in him, and that His principles controlled every aspect of their lives, and thus I feel that we must learn more about Him, to understand the D'ni.
(02/26 04:29:07) The Broken Light: Doc - that's very interesting.
(02/26 04:29:15) John Rockefeller: How quickly we've descended into infighting. If this is going to work, we're going to have to put aside our differences and focus on the task at hand.
(02/26 04:29:25) John Rockefeller: Are you able to do that?
(02/26 04:29:30) The Broken Light: I am very sorry, I came late - what exactly is this meeting/
(02/26 04:29:31) Jan Stepmeir: did I ever say believe what I'm saying no, I'm just stating my beliefs, so John you're the fool
(02/26 04:29:32) The Broken Light: ?
(02/26 04:29:40) DocOlanA: I'll stand with you on that, John.
(02/26 04:30:17) DocOlanA: We are explorers, scientists. A true explorer carries no biases. He does not let his personal beliefs get in the way of studying the world around him or her.
(02/26 04:30:27) Waldorf: knowledge and learning is fortified through the free exchange of ideas
(02/26 04:30:28) The Broken Light: Amen
(02/26 04:30:39) John Rockefeller: Will you stand with us Jan?
(02/26 04:30:47) Brakelatabasaasta: Doubt it.
(02/26 04:30:59) John Rockefeller: I don't, there's a reason Jan is here
(02/26 04:31:15) Jan Stepmeir: I stand with Yeesha
(02/26 04:31:16) DocOlanA: We study Yahvo because the D'ni believed in Yahvo. I will continue to speak of Every Mulder needs a Scully?
(02/26 04:31:25) DocOlanA: Gah. Sorry, chat error.
(02/26 04:31:29) DocOlanA: Every Mulder needs a Scully?
(02/26 04:31:37) bradford: aye
(02/26 04:31:39) DocOlanA: We could use a good skeptic to keep us grounded.
(02/26 04:32:09) Waldorf: Even in a Papl conclave they have a "devils Advocate"
(02/26 04:32:12) Landwynn laughs
(02/26 04:32:14) Waldorf: *Papal
(02/26 04:32:19) John Rockefeller: The door will always be open, Jan. We are all here to leanr as much as we can about D'ni, in every way.
(02/26 04:32:30) Landwynn: i never said I wasn't a skeptic!
(02/26 04:32:56) The Broken Light: I believe that in order to understand any civilization in which religion is deeply rooted, you must, must, understand their religion above just about anything else.
(02/26 04:32:59) DocOlanA: So. We five stand together.
(02/26 04:33:13) Brakelatabasaasta: I'd joi you in your Standing Party, but Brakelatabasaasta is incapable of being serious about anything.
(02/26 04:33:20) The Broken Light: Yah. Just look at that name :P
(02/26 04:33:21) Jan Stepmeir: lol Brake
(02/26 04:33:52) John Rockefeller: I think it might be Swedish
(02/26 04:33:53) The Broken Light: Do we have a name?
(02/26 04:33:56) Landwynn: To paraphrase Voltaire, "If God didn't exist, man would have found it necessary to invent Him"
(02/26 04:33:58) The Broken Light: "Children of Yahvo"?
(02/26 04:34:26) John Rockefeller: Haha that name, although good, implies we believe in Yahvo, which I do not (and I'm sure there are others...)
(02/26 04:34:30) Landwynn: i am curious to find out what kind of a God the D'ni found it necessary to invent.
(02/26 04:34:31) Waldorf: Something less devotional
(02/26 04:34:33) The Broken Light: Nor do I
(02/26 04:34:42) The Broken Light: Landwynn - read the books around you :D
(02/26 04:34:51) Musicteachersheff: Seekers of Yahvo?
(02/26 04:34:59) The Broken Light: Errr.
(02/26 04:35:06) The Broken Light: That's even more devotional :P
(02/26 04:35:14) John Rockefeller: Seekers of Knowledge, since we may find it neccessary to push along discoveries further.
(02/26 04:35:16) Brakelatabasaasta: Seekers of... D'ni Culture Involving Yahvo?
(02/26 04:35:21) DocOlanA: May I suggest the "Mahrent'ahnokh Resheegah Oglahn"
(02/26 04:35:26) DocOlanA: The followers of the ancient ways.
(02/26 04:35:30) The Broken Light: That's a very long name.
(02/26 04:35:31) The Broken Light: o.o
(02/26 04:35:43) John Rockefeller: I like it though, I can agree with that.
(02/26 04:35:43) The Broken Light: We should call ourselves the Cogs.
(02/26 04:35:46) Waldorf: Popular COmmittee for the Liberation of Knowledge?
(02/26 04:35:50) Jan Stepmeir: can you get that printed on a T-Shirt?
(02/26 04:35:50) Brakelatabasaasta: I like long, hard yo spell words! That's a good njame!
(02/26 04:35:55) The Broken Light: Cog is short for the latin word meaning knowledge
(02/26 04:36:04) The Broken Light: And cogs work together toward a greater truth.
(02/26 04:36:14) The Broken Light: So... The Cogs?
(02/26 04:36:18) DocOlanA: We can call ourselves the "Mahrent'ahnokh" for short :)
(02/26 04:36:24) Brakelatabasaasta: Doc's name was better.
(02/26 04:36:28) The Broken Light: Fine :P
(02/26 04:36:34) Landwynn: laughs
(02/26 04:36:35) Jan Stepmeir: lol
(02/26 04:36:37) The Broken Light: Mahrent'ahnokh
(02/26 04:36:37) John Rockefeller: heh..
(02/26 04:36:51) The Broken Light: That's a mouthful.
(02/26 04:37:02) John Rockefeller: FotAW
(02/26 04:37:08) DocOlanA: Actually it's a handful. Difficult to type, really easy to say.
(02/26 04:37:08) John Rockefeller: Followers of the Ancient Ways
(02/26 04:37:08) Brakelatabasaasta: Not nearly as outh filling as Brakelatabasaasta.
(02/26 04:37:17) The Broken Light: Haha
(02/26 04:37:22) Waldorf: Followers indicates adherence
(02/26 04:37:29) Jan Stepmeir: what are those initials?
(02/26 04:37:41) Waldorf: Investigators of the ANcient Ways
(02/26 04:37:45) Brakelatabasaasta: Well, there's no known D'ni verd for "Seek"...
(02/26 04:37:52) The Broken Light: Hmn
(02/26 04:38:02) The Broken Light: I like "Followers of the Ancient Ways"
(02/26 04:38:06) Jan Stepmeir: you are the M.R.O. lol
(02/26 04:38:08) Waldorf: or Investigators of Ways Ancient... IOWA
(02/26 04:38:13) The Broken Light: Lol
(02/26 04:38:16) The Broken Light: I don't think so :P
(02/26 04:38:32) Waldorf: Oh come on, everyone loves IOWA
(02/26 04:38:36) The Broken Light: Understanders toward Ancient Hope
(02/26 04:38:42) The Broken Light: UTAH
(02/26 04:38:43) Brakelatabasaasta doesn't
(02/26 04:38:50) The Broken Light: ... >_<
(02/26 04:39:38) John Rockefeller: Seekers of D'ni Knowledge (SDK)
(02/26 04:39:43) Musicteachersheff: yahvo restoration council
(02/26 04:39:43) The Broken Light: I like that one the best.
(02/26 04:39:48) John Rockefeller: hum... this is harder than I thought it would be
(02/26 04:39:59) The Broken Light: SDK gets my vote.
(02/26 04:40:16) John Rockefeller: SDK then?
(02/26 04:40:19) Brakelatabasaasta: Mahrent'ohnokh!
(02/26 04:40:23) Musicteachersheff: SDK works for m
(02/26 04:40:33) The Broken Light: We are the Seekers of D'ni Knowledge!
(02/26 04:40:34) Waldorf: Cavern of Light Entombs Fundamental Truths... CLEFT
(02/26 04:40:36) The Broken Light cheers
(02/26 04:40:40) DocOlanA: Students of D'ni Knowledge.
(02/26 04:40:40) The Broken Light: Lol
(02/26 04:40:46) The Broken Light: Doc - hmn.
(02/26 04:40:47) Waldorf: darn the lag
(02/26 04:40:49) DocOlanA: Because I can actually find a D'ni word for Student. We haven't translated Seek yet.
(02/26 04:40:53) The Broken Light: I like that one better, actually.
(02/26 04:40:55) DocOlanA: :)
(02/26 04:40:59) John Rockefeller: yeah that works!
(02/26 04:41:05) DocOlanA: And so the SDK is born!
(02/26 04:41:10) The Broken Light: Students of D'ni Knowldege.
(02/26 04:41:17) Jan Stepmeir: Programmers Unite!
(02/26 04:41:20) The Broken Light: Sunday meetings here, in the hall?
(02/26 04:41:21) Brakelatabasaasta: What is it in D'ni?
(02/26 04:41:21) Musicteachersheff: student implies that there is a teacher....seekers is better since it is a group effort
(02/26 04:41:23) The Broken Light: Haha
(02/26 04:41:29) John Rockefeller: Is there any emote for all of us putting our hands one on top of each other and throwing them into the air like a team?
(02/26 04:41:36) DocOlanA: Sunday at 8, Cavern Time.
(02/26 04:41:39) John Rockefeller: D'ni is our teacher.
(02/26 04:41:41) The Broken Light: The teacher is the history provided before us.
(02/26 04:41:43) Waldorf: would "scholars" be pushing it?
(02/26 04:41:46) The Broken Light: John - yes!
(02/26 04:41:47) Brakelatabasaasta: /What John Said
(02/26 04:41:47) Nine-O-Nine: OOC meets IC..... and clashes.... cool....
(02/26 04:41:59) The Broken Light: About d'ni??
(02/26 04:42:06) DocOlanA: Actually "Study-ers" which would be the literal D'ni translation, could be Student or Scholar, I guess.
(02/26 04:42:11) DocOlanA: One who studies.
(02/26 04:42:17) The Broken Light: Awesome
(02/26 04:42:22) John Rockefeller: I really like Student of D'ni Knowledge
(02/26 04:42:30) DocOlanA: Scholar just sounds a bit pretentious to me.
(02/26 04:42:31) John Rockefeller: Students*
(02/26 04:42:54) Musicteachersheff: Next week then....gotta run
(02/26 04:43:09) Musicteachersheff waves hello
(02/26 04:43:12) Jan Stepmeir: and an ounce of pretention is worth a pound of manure
(02/26 04:43:17) The Broken Light: See ya MTS
(02/26 04:43:23) The Broken Light: Lol Jan
(02/26 04:43:27) John Rockefeller: OK I'm going to make a forum post. Is it okay to include your KI numbers in the post?
(02/26 04:43:35) The Broken Light: Sure :)
(02/26 04:43:41) Musicteachersheff: Yes
(02/26 04:43:43) Waldorf: I think I just heard a Bahro scream something about Manure...
(02/26 04:43:45) bradford: i think he really needs something to do
(02/26 04:43:50) John Rockefeller: Can you guys just type your KI # into chat since I've had a chat log running this whole time
(02/26 04:43:58) The Broken Light: Ok
(02/26 04:43:58) John Rockefeller: 2422716
(02/26 04:44:00) Jan Stepmeir: lol
(02/26 04:44:09) The Broken Light: 02666257
(02/26 04:44:15) The Broken Light: (lol 666)
(02/26 04:44:15) DocOlanA: Include away, John.
(02/26 04:44:26) Waldorf: 02459185
(02/26 04:44:28) bradford: just go to recent
(02/26 04:44:45) DocOlanA: 00646767
(02/26 04:44:59) Jan Stepmeir: lol Brake
(02/26 04:45:07) John Rockefeller: Okay thanks all.
[/spoiler]

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KI# 02117319

The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn


Last edited by DocOlanA on Thu May 10, 2007 12:30 am, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:20 pm 
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this sounds like fun, doc. i'll try to make it this coming sunday. good location for it too.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:45 pm 
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Didn't we already KNOW what Taygahn meant? I mean, wasn't it mentioned in the journals on the Tokotah Rooftop way back in ABM?

Taygahn - To love with the mind. Used in relationship to both marriage and worship.

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Maratanos wrote:
Didn't we already KNOW what Taygahn meant? I mean, wasn't it mentioned in the journals on the Tokotah Rooftop way back in ABM?

Taygahn - To love with the mind. Used in relationship to both marriage and worship.


Well, yes we did, but while the Marriage notebook mentioned the meaning of taygahn, and that it was used both to describe a relationship between spouses and the relationship between a D'ni and Yahvo, I don't believe it was ever said that the D'ni religion really focused on the taygahn between D'ni and Yahvo being the most important thing.

That's the kind of revelation that can lead to a more comprehensive understanding of D'ni culture, which is what we're all about.

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The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:53 pm 
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DocOlanA wrote:
Maratanos wrote:
Didn't we already KNOW what Taygahn meant? I mean, wasn't it mentioned in the journals on the Tokotah Rooftop way back in ABM?

Taygahn - To love with the mind. Used in relationship to both marriage and worship.


Well, yes we did, but while the Marriage notebook mentioned the meaning of taygahn, and that it was used both to describe a relationship between spouses and the relationship between a D'ni and Yahvo, I don't believe it was ever said that the D'ni religion really focused on the taygahn between D'ni and Yahvo being the most important thing.

That's the kind of revelation that can lead to a more comprehensive understanding of D'ni culture, which is what we're all about.


I always thought so. Was I just making up stuff, then?

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I apologize for missing this, but I will definitely be at the next one!

See you DocOlanA


John Rockefeller


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DocOlanA wrote:
Maratanos wrote:
Didn't we already KNOW what Taygahn meant? I mean, wasn't it mentioned in the journals on the Tokotah Rooftop way back in ABM?

Taygahn - To love with the mind. Used in relationship to both marriage and worship.


Well, yes we did, but while the Marriage notebook mentioned the meaning of taygahn, and that it was used both to describe a relationship between spouses and the relationship between a D'ni and Yahvo, I don't believe it was ever said that the D'ni religion really focused on the taygahn between D'ni and Yahvo being the most important thing.


It was certainly implied, not just by the language used to describe it but by the nature of the rituals too.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:00 am 
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Nifty! I'll try and drop in next time - looks like you had some great stimulating discussion. Well done!

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Storyteller wrote:
DocOlanA wrote:
Maratanos wrote:
Didn't we already KNOW what Taygahn meant? I mean, wasn't it mentioned in the journals on the Tokotah Rooftop way back in ABM?

Taygahn - To love with the mind. Used in relationship to both marriage and worship.


Well, yes we did, but while the Marriage notebook mentioned the meaning of taygahn, and that it was used both to describe a relationship between spouses and the relationship between a D'ni and Yahvo, I don't believe it was ever said that the D'ni religion really focused on the taygahn between D'ni and Yahvo being the most important thing.


It was certainly implied, not just by the language used to describe it but by the nature of the rituals too.
Also, wasn't the requirement for entering the Perfect Age to be in at least one relationship of taygahn? That makes it sound pretty important to me.

(General stuff: I still think the name "Students of D'ni Knowledge" is rather misleading. So far the only topic I've seen discussed is religion, which is very different from either culture or knowledge.)

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Aww.. I'd really like to attend one of these.. except for me it'd end up being at around 2 or 3 am..

Ah, well.. guess I'll have to stick to reading chatlogs..


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Katalia Tzeran wrote:
Aww.. I'd really like to attend one of these.. except for me it'd end up being at around 2 or 3 am..

Ah, well.. guess I'll have to stick to reading chatlogs..


I'll keep updating this thread every Sunday for you. And feel free to KIMail me if there's a question you want brought up during the meeting, and I'll bring it up for you :)

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KI# 02117319

The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:32 pm 
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How are you going to arrange it so that everyone who wants to attend will arrive in the same instance of the city?


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Jacquet wrote:
How are you going to arrange it so that everyone who wants to attend will arrive in the same instance of the city?


We've actually been considering this. Our next meeting will still be in the main city (where you get from the nexus), but as our interest increases, eventually we're going to hit that 40 person max. So, beginning in April, we're creating the "Students of D'ni Knowledge" Bevin, and we're going to start holding meetings there. Not quite as atmospheric as the Hall of Kings, regrettably, but able to accommodate far more people.

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KI# 02117319

The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn


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I'm not sure, but according to what I've been reading, this should work. Create a SDK Bevin, use the Bahro Stone (if we are allowed to keep them) set on "share" to link everyone to a private instance of the city. If it works the way I think there shouldn't be any limits, just like Bevin.


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Well, since Nick's said it a few times, and it's been posted various places, I suppose I can come right out and say it.

Nick White has provided the Students of D'ni Knowledge with one of his presently unpublished translations. We have been discussing it, bit by bit, and much stimulating discussion is had by all. So come by the Students of D'ni Knowledge's bevin every Sunday at 7 PM Cavern Time (10 PM EDT) and join us!

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KI# 02117319

The Students of D'ni Knowledge!

Next SoDK Meeting: Sunday, March 28, 20:00 (8 PM) MST (10 PM EST, 2 AM GMT)
Subject: D'ni Law and Punishment
Moderator: Ahlehn


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