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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:31 am 
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Since I heard cyan mean to give some tool for the fan to create their own age, i've been wondering.

How will that be done ?
No way to test the age the age directly on the live server -> we need some place to test them. The age on the live would have be cyan-approuved, thus limiting the possibilities.

All that lead to one though. What about "live shard" administred by however is willing, where we log on with our gametap account, and can use user ki / admin ki, create age etc...

That would make a nice place for the until lovers, all while helping cyan / gametap.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:15 pm 
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The details for age creation haven't been worked out yet. But I can assure you that age creation won't be done by clicking around in the KI. It's going to be a hard job that needs a lot of knowledge. You'll need a team of people that know how to build 3d environments in a tool like Blender, artists for textures and Python programmers.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:31 pm 
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That is, unless Cyan has brilliantly come up with an intuitive world-creator.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:07 pm 
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I'm quitte aware of that ;) And that wasn't really the point beind my thread. It's now a question of "how" it's a question of "where"

Creating age, and the possiblite of using admin ki / user ki are differant things.
Some of us would realy like to be able to use these again.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:35 pm 
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Ladon wrote:
That is, unless Cyan has brilliantly come up with an intuitive world-creator.


That's extremely unlikely unless you want to build an age out of boring boxes. Even a world generator for boring ages would need a fair amount of knowledge. You have to get away from the dream that everybody can build an age within an hour.

Even a simple age like a pod requires several weeks, maybe two months work for a team of skilled age creators. You don't believe me? Grap a tool like Blender and try to recreate a pod age from the scratch. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:40 pm 
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Tiran wrote:
Ladon wrote:
That is, unless Cyan has brilliantly come up with an intuitive world-creator.


That's extremely unlikely unless you want to build an age out of boring boxes. Even a world generator for boring ages would need a fair amount of knowledge. You have to get away from the dream that everybody can build an age within an hour.

Even a simple age like a pod requires several weeks, maybe two months work for a team of skilled age creators. You don't believe me? Grap a tool like Blender and try to recreate a pod age from the scratch. :)


Don't worry, I'm an artist. I've modelled before, and I agree that it's no easy task. However, in the context of the game, nobody will start off knowing everything about writing either. They'll probably have a bunch of lines of text from a few different describing books, which will provide them with a limited environment and collection of objects. Sounds boring, I know.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:47 pm 
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Ladon wrote:
Tiran wrote:
Ladon wrote:
That is, unless Cyan has brilliantly come up with an intuitive world-creator.


That's extremely unlikely unless you want to build an age out of boring boxes. Even a world generator for boring ages would need a fair amount of knowledge. You have to get away from the dream that everybody can build an age within an hour.

Even a simple age like a pod requires several weeks, maybe two months work for a team of skilled age creators. You don't believe me? Grap a tool like Blender and try to recreate a pod age from the scratch. :)


Don't worry, I'm an artist. I've modelled before, and I agree that it's no easy task. However, in the context of the game, nobody will start off knowing everything about writing either. They'll probably have a bunch of lines of text from a few different describing books, which will provide them with a limited environment and collection of objects. Sounds boring, I know.


The tool creators know all 8)

Likely, an Age will be first tested by the creator in Uru PotS; then sent to Cyan for multi-player testing; then possibly pushed to the Live server.

It's possible that there will be a seperate server for multi-player testing, it's possible that the Rehearsal people will do it; either way, that part will likely be in Cyan's hands.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:53 am 
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POTS can't used for that, because the graphics engine are not the same.

Sure, cyan need a hand on the age that will go on the live. But I don't think they can actually control the whole process. It requires either a solo universe , or a shard like system, to test without cyan having to fix an eventual test server every now and then. Once the person is done with creating his/her age, he/she can send it to cyan if he/she feels it's deserve cyan's attention.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:05 pm 
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Tiran wrote:
But I can assure you that age creation won't be done by clicking around in the KI. It's going to be a hard job that needs a lot of knowledge. You'll need a team of people that know how to build 3d environments in a tool like Blender, artists for textures and Python programmers.

Thing is, I'd be extremely disapointed if they did just that. I also think they'd be foolish to do just that.

It's all well and good creating age-creation tools for people with your knowledge, Tiran, but they represent a tiny, tiny proportion of URU users. I mean, I'd love to create an age, but in terms of 3D modelling, python programming etc. I wouldn't have the foggiest!

What I'd ideally love to see is a spectrum of options. On one end are the proper tools, for the use of people like you, but on the other end are much simpler tools, for the use of people like me.

I'm talking about, say, a long list of options which can be toggled on or off, or in between. Kinda like Relto, but quite a few levels higher, and with all options available immediatley (as opposed to finding things). Maybe also the possibility for very simple 3D modelling. And certainly the option to create puzzles, but simple ones, say, mazes, or word/number puzzles etc.

Clearly the ages created in this fasion will be a lot, lot less original than ages created by people such as yourself, but at least it would open up age-creation to the masses.

If it's kept to the way you suggest, it'll be limited to those very few that have the computer know-how, and that would be bad, IMO.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:24 pm 
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Islander wrote:
Thing is, I'd be extremely disapointed if they did just that. I also think they'd be foolish to do just that.

It's all well and good creating age-creation tools for people with your knowledge, Tiran, but they represent a tiny, tiny proportion of URU users. I mean, I'd love to create an age, but in terms of 3D modelling, python programming etc. I wouldn't have the foggiest!


I'm sorry but I have to say that you are living in a dream world. :) I like your dream and it would be amazing if it comes true but it's an utopia. Such a tool would cost at least a million $ and would be more complex than the Uru itself. And even the tool would be too complex for a noob.

Age creation is a very complex process that requires a LOT of know how and time. The first tools to be released by Cyan or somebody else will be very complicated even for people like me. It will take about an year before fan have added more functions and additional tools around the core features before age creation is going to be user friendly for experts.

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What I'd ideally love to see is a spectrum of options. On one end are the proper tools, for the use of people like you, but on the other end are much simpler tools, for the use of people like me.

I'm talking about, say, a long list of options which can be toggled on or off, or in between. Kinda like Relto, but quite a few levels higher, and with all options available immediatly (as opposed to finding things).


Please ask yourself if you really like to see the 50th Relto clone or yet another age build of some cubes and spheres. If you want to get a feeling how complex 3d modeling is then grab Blender and try to build a wireframe model of a tree.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:30 pm 
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Tiran wrote:
Islander wrote:
Thing is, I'd be extremely disapointed if they did just that. I also think they'd be foolish to do just that.

It's all well and good creating age-creation tools for people with your knowledge, Tiran, but they represent a tiny, tiny proportion of URU users. I mean, I'd love to create an age, but in terms of 3D modelling, python programming etc. I wouldn't have the foggiest!


I'm sorry but I have to say that you are living in a dream world. :) I like your dream and it would be amazing if it comes true but it's an utopia. Such a tool would cost at least a million $ and would be more complex than the Uru itself. And even the tool would be too complex for a noob.

Actually, the way I see it, your suggested creation tools seem a lot, lot less likely to be created than mine.

Look at it this way: If Cyan put's time and effort into creating tools for your standard, they'll engage the interest of a very, very small number of people - those with the amount of knowledge you have.

If Cyan put in the same time and effort creating tools for my standard, they'll engage the interest of many thousands more.

Economically it makes much, much more sense to enage players with knowledge similar to mine, and it seems economically pointless, to me, to go as high-level as what you suggest.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:49 pm 
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Islander wrote:
Actually, the way I see it, your suggested creation tools seem a lot, lot less likely to be created than mine.

Look at it this way: If Cyan put's time and effort into creating tools for your standard, they'll engage the interest of a very, very small number of people - those with the amount of knowledge you have.

If Cyan put in the same time and effort creating tools for my standard, they'll engage the interest of many thousands more.


No, I don't agree with you. "My" version of the age creation tools are basically the tools Cyan is using now. IIRC Cyan uses expansive standard tools like Maya or 3dMax to create ages. The 3d meshes, textures and glue code are compiled to Uru format (PRP, SDL, AGE, FNI) via a set of tools.
If Cyan would release a stripped down and secured version of the tools that can't change or abuse their own ages then we could create ages like they do now.

You are proposing a complete new chain of tools that would bind a group of developers for several months, maybe years.

I've other arguments against your proposal:
Do you want thousand tiny and boring ages or do you want one or two interesting, unique and large ages per month?
Do you want to wait a very long time before the first age creation tools are released or do you think that it is better to get complex tools soon than to get no tools?
Do you like the idea that Cyan spends a lot of time and money on easy tools than spending less time on complex tools but more time and money on high quality Cyan ages?

The kind of tools you like to see may be available 2008 or 2009 but not this year.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:00 pm 
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I think the point Tiran is trying to make is that adapting something as complex as Age making and to do it in such a way so the general masses can use it properly, would take alot more resources than adapting it to those with more skillz. For every thing that you or someone on your team can't do, the tools have to do it, and such a tool would take a long time to develop.

But Age making itself is made of a lot of other things beside programming, modelling and animation. Think of music, concept art, puzzle design, story etc. There's alot of space for people to fill. And after all, these can't possibly be one-man projects, unless the areas are really, really tiny.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:15 pm 
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Carrot wrote:
Think of music-

I'm going to use this as an example, sorry :)

There are many ways to create music. Congrats to anyone who just learned this. There's the easy and accessable way, using Garage Band. And there's the difficult and challenging way using real instruments. However, Garage Band, while using an awesome library of drag and drop loops, also has the ability to plug in an instrument and record that also.

The ultimate age creator wouldn't be an express version of 3DS Max, or Blender. That would be impossibly difficult for the regular user. (no matter what those with experience say, learning to model is difficult) However, with a large library of simple objects and modular pieces, it would be possible for anyone to make their own simple age. Then people who actually understood modelling might also be able to import their own special pieces in a specific file format.

My point is that as explorers, we can't just immediately know how to write an age. I've said this before, it would be illogical for us to be able to jump in and write unique material. What we would end up doing is (like a beginner with html) looking at the source code, and putting in elements from ages we've been to. Look at Eders Delin and Tsogal. All created from things found in other ages. Two perfect examples of what I'm talking about. Yet even with limited options, there are an amazing amount of possibilities.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:19 pm 
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Ladon wrote:
The ultimate age creator wouldn't be an express version of 3DS Max, or Blender. That would be impossibly difficult for the regular user. (no matter what those with experience say, learning to model is difficult) However, with a large library of simple objects and modular pieces, it would be possible for anyone to make their own simple age. Then people who actually understood modelling might also be able to import their own special pieces in a specific file format.

Ladon, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Exactly.

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